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JD
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 08:48:19 PM »

I agree some of what we learn is crap, and useless information (GPS Datums anyone?), but the CDAA record speaks for itself. Obviously our training is doing what it was designed to do in the beginning, ie keep people alive in caves.

Talking to Tank guides, the newer guys have skills the older original members may not have. There are some older guys who have NFI too. Problem is, although they may not have perfect trim and can pull off the perfect heli turn, they have more cave experience and have dragged themselves out of some pretty nasty situations. Sure they dont look as nice in the water, but when the shit hits the fan they have the experience to get themselves and someone else out. They have been there and done it more times than we have had hot dinners. Basically, even though the skill level may have gotten a bit 'lazy', these guys have the runs on the board and should be respected as such.

Rob, care to comment?

JD
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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2008, 09:05:36 PM »

isnt it easier not to get into sh*t in the first place.... then you wouldnt need to get out of it?Huh
the people that are good at it prob do it all the time.......sounds like a dangerous game of lotto
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JD
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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2008, 09:46:25 PM »

Really?
Although I admit some skills will make getting in the shit less likely, it will happen. The guys who I am referring to pioneered cave diving in Australia. You are lucky to have excellent training, reliable equipment which is purchasable off the shelf, and lovely well marked holes to dive in. They didnt. They made gear, had no buoyancy vests, used sub standard gear and survived. Dived single tanks. Reels were a piece of wood with twine. We are lucky to have all this safety gear, reliable regs, a choice of buoyancy compensators and fantastic training.
You can dive your whole career and never have an incident if you stick to the known. Start pushing boundaries and things change. Get out of your comfort zone, and not know whats around the next bend. Take skiing for example. Once you learn, you never need crash again, just stick to the easy slopes and enjoy. Start going faster, steeper or more rugged, and your chance of a crash increases. Diving is no different, however we have the guys who made mistakes before us to learn from.
Seriously, if you think you will never have an incident because of your excellent skills and training, please remind me of this if we ever go diving.....

JD
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Brad
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2008, 09:14:32 AM »

Some very good points made here JD. In my opinion anyway.

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Brad
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2008, 09:22:58 AM »

... id rather dive with someone that actually realizes their strengths and weaknesses, cos we all have them ( we all cant be JJ),



Hi Karl. Hey I'm curious, are you implying that JJ has no strengths and weaknesses or is it you are implying he doesn't realize what they are?
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onwardsupwards
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2008, 11:03:39 AM »

Some very good points on both sides. I see where Karl is coming from as GUE training, wether it be Fundies, Tech or Cave ,places great emphasis on preventing problems before they occur. This then becomes a natural way of thinking about your diving and causes some head scratching when observing divers having problems that are easily preventable. Some well explained points of view from you JD.
Hang on ,this can't be right, this DOES seem to be a serious conversation!!!
Oh well I'm sure PH can fix it. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

P.S I think all CDAA Pen instructors are GODS and should be treated as such. (Pen course in October) Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2008, 11:07:39 AM »

Some very good points on both sides. I see where Karl is coming from as GUE training, wether it be Fundies, Tech or Cave ,places great emphasis on preventing problems before they occur. This then becomes a natural way of thinking about your diving and causes some head scratching when observing divers having problems that are easily preventable. Some well explained points of view from you JD.
Hang on ,this can't be right, this DOES seem to be a serious conversation!!!
Oh well I'm sure PH can fix it. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

P.S I think all CDAA Pen instructors are GODS and should be treated as such. (Pen course in October) Grin Grin Grin

does anyone know the dates of any up and coming Fundies courses?Huh?

 Grin

ps On... don't be a flog like your mate....and good luck with the pen course too!
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onwardsupwards
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 09:27:17 AM »

Paul, I'm shocked, It wasn't that long ago that you suggested that Karl  , quote" should give your mate 'ON' the 'lemon and sars' he is a *NON-GOOEY-DIVER*" unquote, on another forum.Now you reckon I should do the same to him!! Huh

You really are FUJAK material.
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PMH
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 09:52:01 AM »

Paul, I'm shocked, It wasn't that long ago that you suggested that Karl  , quote" should give your mate 'ON' the 'lemon and sars' he is a *NON-GOOEY-DIVER*" unquote, on another forum.Now you reckon I should do the same to him!! Huh

You really are FUJAK material.

I call that the "reverse reach around"
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onwardsupwards
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 06:49:44 PM »

JD

Re GUE trained divers failing Pen & cave courses. Not knowing what GUE training the persons involved have received, lets assume that if they have been able to pass a Tech1,Cave1 level course then their trim, bouyancy and general in water capability are squared away.

I don't include Fundies in this description as it is an entry level course designed to introduce the skill sets required,that with practice, will enable the diver to proceed to Tech1 etc with a reasonable chance of success.

This suggests to me that there may be a psychological reason, ie cave, pen environment contributing to the course failures.

Another possibility is that they were just having a bad day, but surely the course structure would take this into account in some way.

Any details available to follow this line of reasoning? No names etc of course.   

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JD
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2008, 07:40:31 PM »

Not sure which instructor etc these guys did courses with, but good divers (in my opinion) none the less. Mostly are zealots with a few exceptions.
I dont think the environment had much to do with it, but mindset certainly did. They were all a bit "I have passed GUE courses, the hardest in the business, what is this pissy little CDAA course going to teach me that I dont already know? I could do this with my eyes shut with 1 arm tied behind my back" sort of mentality.
The CDAA courses have the potential to bring any diver unstuck. I have seen great divers fail, be it from any agency. The pen course in particular is 75% mental. Follow the dive plan, have it 110% etched into your brain before you start. Once in the water, think nothing but the plan. Ask questions beforehand. Not every instructor can explain everything in a way everyone will understand. If in doubt, ask.
READ YOUR MANUAL!!!! It is there for a reason. Ian and I were prepared for every dive before we were given the brief. People were wandering around asking "I wonder what we are doing on this dive" before pretty much every dive. The fact Ian and I knew was lost on them. We were at Pines when someone asked how come we knew all of this. Were we getting heads up from the instructors (GY was instructing, and people knew we were mates)? People were actually surprised when we told them it was in the manual!
Do not be complacent. Do not think you are better than the course. Do not think it will be a walk in the park. Go into it with the right attitude and you will enjoy it, and maybe even learn something.
Good luck. If you want to talk beforehand, let me know.

JD
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PMH
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2008, 07:55:04 PM »

. Do not think you are better than the course. Do not think it will be a walk in the park. Go into it with the right attitude and you will enjoy it, and maybe even learn something.
Good luck. If you want to talk beforehand, let me know.

JD
[/quote]

and if you do come unstuck (forwhat ever reason) cop it on the chin, don't blame anyone learn from it and if needed stay and complete your theory!

good luck

H
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JD
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2008, 08:04:12 PM »

Oh, and DO NOT go to the pub for a few beers before the exam and get there late... Grin Grin

JD
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PMH
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2008, 08:12:03 PM »

Oh, and DO NOT go to the pub for a few beers before the exam and get there late... Grin Grin

JD
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Craig
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2008, 08:47:25 PM »

<<EDIT>>
READ YOUR MANUAL!!!!
<</EDIT>>
JD

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