rantFUJAK

so Rob  I see you have been appointed and accepted the role of the Site Director again...however are you actually aware that the current one hasn't resigned yet.

now let this one be serious and open discussion with no personal attacks

apologies see correction above...fucken flat out today

Is That Standards Director or Site Director? I thought the latter.

Regards Rick   

See I can play nice. ;)

It is Site director not Standards

C

The big question now will be their CDAA instructor rating. Sure, they lose Director positions, Access Officer, big deal. Though to affect their instructor rating is a very contentious issue.

I hardly believe that the sole 'blame' for want of a better word, can be placed on them both. It's a failure of the regulator, the governing agency, in this case, CDAA, to appropriately monitor training conducted.

There has been no independent oversight of CDAA courses for years. Reliance upon individuals to maintain standards will create problems, particularly with the very large change to the Deep Cavern program introduced a year ago. The introduction of the DC course was a shambles. The standards barely make sense themselves, let alone trying to teach them with contradictory materials. There was no instructor workshops, education, etc. Rather just a " Well you're all professional instructors, you should be able to work this out ". And then two (is there a third? - I know of one who should be !) CDAA instructors are found non-compliant with course training standards.

If you compare it to PADI, an organisation with an excellent QA system for training, they have 're-education' options if found non-compliant, you can be forced to resit an IDC/IE, or retrain under a CD. How come these options dont exist ?

My understanding is that it affects their Instructor rating as that was the crux of the issue.

I believe that as the issue surrounds alleged non-adherence to course standards it is primarily an allegation as instructors not as Directors. From memory I think ST's email said it is a requirement that if a director is found in breach/suspended then they must give up their directorship. I don't know if that applies to Site Access Managers but the regulations do state that the NatComm hires & fires.

Exactly what alleged breaches to training standards has to do with the ability or willingness of a volunteer to handle site access is beyond me.

Ian I agree with your comments. Not having read the course standards (I don't even think we as ordinary members have access) it seems like a basic direction is provided to the instructional team but determination of the finer details are left to the instructor. Or to the NatComm after the event as the case may be  ;)

One would have thought that re-education or counselling would have been sufficient.

But of course we as mere members don't know the full story and it will be interesting is we ever will.

Hi All

Yes i am the Site Director again!.

Gary and Linda were cited on breaches of standards in a? some? cave diving courses. The investigating officers decided that the breaches were minor and the time that their teaching status was suspended for was ample puninshment. Their teaching status was reinstated. Woc working to the letter has asked for Gary regisnation as per the regs and constituition.

That's all i know. Todate i have received no info on the matter and all i know is what has been stated.

I have spoken with Gary, while he does not agree with the findings he will abide by it. After some discussions with Gary he does have a few issues with some things and i will be asking for some clarification.

Regards
Rob B

pssssssssst, psssssssssssssst, psssssssssssssssssssst all this secret squirrel talk... he said she said bulls*@t, gossip queen rant..... harvs cant u resist stirring shit...... If you are  no longer in the association and no longer dive, F*@k off and stop STILL causing trouble within..... you are no longer involved for a reason......

 Gary and Linda are both great and nice ppl, but if you break the rules, you pay the price!! As you and RN know, the rules and punishments may not be right in our eyes, but they are the ones in writing... thats what needs to change.... not the ppl that  implement them!!!

Karl, call it what you like....but it is fact....this is a discussion  forum, and this is fair discussion, so if you can't handle the truth then perhaps you should fuck off or not log on my posts, thats the beauty of a forum you can pick and choose what you want to read. I was merely bringing RB up to spead on the dirty two faces of another individual ;-)

And who the fuck made you a moderator on the list....if I am out of line then Im sure JD will deal with me accordingly...so until you are appointed as a moderator here shut the fuck up, but I don't expect any different from you..once a zealot always a zealot I guess

enjoy your day

Folks,
This is how I understand the problem. I am not an instructor, so maybe Ian can comment and correct if neccesary.

The problem stems from the new deep cavern course. The course structure was re written to make it easier for instructors to come to the mount and do the course in 3 days. A pool session was added at the start so instructors did not have to do a prelim dive in Gouldens, it could be done in a pool in Melbourne, Adelaide or where ever. The second change was to eliminate a possible reverse profile dive. A dive was required in Gouldens in the AM, and the PM dive was little blue. Gary and Linda solved this problem by making sure the morning dive was to the bottom of Gouldens (24 m, probably more like 20m now), and doing a wall dive in Little Blue to 20m. They wanted to swap these 2 dives around, so in the new course you do the reverse of what we did on our courses.
Now, here lies the problem. It is a course standard to do these dives in the new order, however the CDAA regulations state a member must not dive in a site until they have received a temporary card or membership card. Under the rules, this card cannot be issued until the Gouldens dives had been completed, and it is a landowner requirement all diving people must be members. So in reality, the dives in Little Blue could not be done until the Gouldens dives were completed, but you were unable to let the divers do the Gouldens dive first.
Essentially, one law contravened another. The binding law however, was the one in which Gary and Linda followed. EVERY instructor teaching the new course had violated standards. Some were prosecuted, others not.
Make up your own minds.

JD

Harvs, dude get a root and calm down, geeeeeeeeeee, man u make it too easy  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ::) ::) ::) :o :o :o :o

just so it is clear I am not in any way questioning RB as SD now or inthe past I am merely exposing some facts about what I know was about RB and to RB...... Karl as for getting a root....I am sorted, your mum was in town  ;D ;D

Your more sicker than i thought, considering she past 3 years ago... but i wouldnt put anything past you...... thanks mate :'( :'( :'(

no disrespect intended......mind youy JD had an aunt who died in a bushfire didnt you JD

[EVERY instructor teaching the new course had violated standards. Some were prosecuted, others not.
Make up your own minds.

JD
[/quote]

interesting?...Ian have you been charged yet

Nope.

I do understand both sides of the standards argument that has occured. There are a combination of factors, such as poor instructor training on the new course, ad hoc course standards and materials, and other things when introducing the new Deep Cavern course, that contributed.

The new program allows for a pool session ( which I strongly believe is essential ), and allows a site dive prior to the sinkhole pre-assessment dive. This is the issue in contention.

Divers commencing the program now need to be AOW, hence they already have a 30m depth rating. The pre-requisite dives also verify the DC student can dive to 30m satisfactorily. There is therefore no reason why they cant go to 30m. Hence the sinkhole site dive, which has a max of 30m, prior to the pre-assessment dive back in Gouldens. When the temporary card is issued is not really that much of a point. I generally say that the site is a 40m plus site, if you fail, dont come back and dive it, it's dangerous, etc etc.

JD's point is correct. Although after repeated direction from the SD that this was now how it was to be done, they ignored that.

There were a number of other training points that were questioned also, though i wont go into that.

My concern about the whole process is the lack of observation of the individuals when teaching. It's all off paperwork, and phone calls. Why not see these guys in the water, and provide feed back, rather than an investigation. I believe this would have been a much preferred approach

Well!!

It's all nothing new! Woc has his adgenda's and uses all sorts of things to get people moving off in the direction he requires. Telling GB and LC that i was a crap as Site Dir would be his way of making something happen in the department.

I dont really care. I know i propvided new improvements to many sites, opened new sites, was able to get TRI_MIX into our sites dispite many against it, was able to keep Pines open when the woods and forrest wanted it closed and many more things.

I know that the divers access was far better after i finished in the role as SD than before i started. So i really dont care what anybody said or did not say. The record speaks for itself.

Thanks for the heads up anyway.

regards
RB

RB,

Completely agree. I believe you did a lot of great job as SD at the time ( Stinging nettle access, Pines Access, Site improvements, Trimix etc). Thanks for your efforts. I would say that Kilsby's now is getting a lot of dives in it under the new lease (not sure if you were involved in that either).

Can I ask now what things / goals your planning on doing within this term ? I do have two cave diving sites that I am involved in 'pushing' though they are no where near Gambier or Nullarbor. More to come on this when we make the connections and push the cave. Secret Squirrel stuff..... 

Ian

would these be the Buchan caves in Victoria

Hi All

My main objective is to get the landowner laisaion meetings back up and running. I can from there push some things that are way behind, like more tables at some sites, shed at pines etc. The forrest people have worked out not to charge us for diving for the moment so their reluctance to build stuff on their property should be lower so i will try for it.

I will be looking to form a sub committee of divers and assistants who are interested in "" gardening "" in some places , building stuff on sites and making sites better to access.

Just some thoughts.
Regards
RB

Rob, count me in for assistance on any projects down the Mt.. :) :)

Thanks for that

Anymore of you guys? :D :D :D

Rob,

for the record I do like you and respect you, and our shakey history was never aimed at you (you were altimately colateral damage) and I have no doubt you have perhaps learnt from past CDAA alliances so I am confident pushing forward in the roll will be posiitive, but in saying that I wouldn't get too settled yet as I don't things certain issues are quite over yet.

As for helping out in the future I could perhaps make time (just when depends on Chester's health, which is on a down hill run) I will be rejoining the CDAA and sticking it up the arse (read as figure of speach) of certain individuals. Please do not ask me to do any sort of plumbing!

Happy to do what I can

C

Thanks Rob for the response on your ideas while SD. Happy to assist and provide some labour as required. Does Research and Mapping come under the SD ?

Yes
Mapping and research do come under Site and this is to be part of the sub committee to be formed.

I hope to have 3 or 4 splinter groups in that main group that will devide into 1 " digging sites " 2 mapping sites 3 site improvements and site management.

Regards
Rob B

Rob, count me in.

If you need any mix diving below 45m, let me know. ::) ;D

JD

that would be on open circuit!!!!!!!!

now that RB is temporarily back as SD.....the YBOD trimix diving will come to and end in the mount now,yeah?

That depends

If qualified! ;D ;D ;D ;D i believe you can dive to where ever.

RB

god that pic looks like GI3 with a beard!

GI3?

mr Irvine the 3rd

I'm not sure how to take that ??? ??? ???