rantFUJAK

Rick, when you have a spare minute, id like to discuss ratio deco and standard gases.....

How about you ask Craig to insert a specific DIR area? It will make it easier for us to find the posts we want to take the piss out of.

JD

JD obviously that want to have a chat on how to get bent!!!!!!

Harvs, hows things going mate......ST....... what would that stand for??? Not an awe inspiring instructor and director........

BTW ive heard its good to use seal saver on your drysuit seals when you store them and dont use them for awhile!!!

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

"awe inspiring"? Really?
Seriously, you guys need better role models. If a melbourne homocide detective is your idol, let me lend you Underbelly.......
I think he is already going steady with Jase Ace anyway!

JD

JD are you suggesting that the Dark Knight has a new Robbin?????  be careful tiger...harrassment????? AND YOU KNOW YOU ARE ON THE LIST!!!!!!!!

Good point. Was Chris invited to China? You know what holiday romances are like, once you get home things are never the same.
I am on the list, and with you now dealt with, I am one step closer......

JD

I don't think so, Ace doesn't like a third wheel affecting his trum!

Karl you really should be a bit more sensitive to the feelings of others. There are many and varied reasons for not being able to dive and you really shouldn't be making fun of other peoples misfortunes.
You may be in the same position yourself one day and be relying on the support of your dive buddys through hard times.Harvs, if theirs anything I can do to ease the pain of your forced absence just let me know. Maybe some lessons in ratio deco, standard gases, team awareness to help pass the time.
Anytime buddy. 

On...with sentiments like that you are the kind of buddy I can really call a friend. I think it is time you distance yourself from gooza and you will surely lift your standing in the dive community by hanging around with me......can I interest you in a dive at Ewans????

Rick i think maybe this once you could "branch out" and dive with a *NON-GOOEY-DIVER*..... it maybe good for cross relations.... but be warned, if you dive in ewens with harvs youll prob need to use a reel... the first and second pond are only about 6-7 m deep, not sure if harvs bouyancy is that crash hot, thats why he prefers the deeper dives, more room to bounce up and down ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Goo....are you diving Tank yet????... and you paid over a $1k to fix your bouyancy right? ;D

Diving Tank isnt a representation of a skill level... merely a level of certification reached, an entry level of skill to that cert level mind you too. The requirements of the CDAA are abit lackluster and perhaps they implement a 'recertification' policy........ then lets see if all of these tank cave divers and long time pen divers are all up to scratch and leading the way!!! :o :o

That 1k i spent on a particluar course was some of the best value for money things i have ever done... and i would hold the value of that cert card much higher than being pen rated (one day).

I know many people with lots of cert card and have dived across the world.... doesnt mean s#*t... i wouldnt dive past 15m with them..... but if saying you are/ were/ am but not allow too, a tank cave diver allows people too think they have reach a almighty level of skill,so be it... id rather dive with someone that actually realizes their strengths and weaknesses, cos we all have them ( we all cant be JJ), realizing them only makes you strive to be better, rather than become complacent being a tank cave diver...

Isnt this novel! It almost sounds like a serious conversation!

Karl, although I do not totally disagree with what you have said, as a proud CDAA diver, I do not think it is fair to compare a fundies or tech1 course with a cave course. They are 2 seperate things. A cave course (be it cave or pen) is certainly not there to teach buoyancy. If you are doing the course, you should have your shit together. If the instructor on either course has to teach trim, you shouldnt be there.
Did you get taught lost line searches on GUE courses? Did they teach arrows? Cave diving is cave diving, tech diving is tech diving. Being certified by GUE to use helium to 45m is not the same as a pen course.
Plenty of GUE and DIR divers have failed the pen course, and some have even failed cave. DO NOT think because you have completed GUE training that you will breeze through the pen program. These failed divers are not numpties either, they are divers who I consider excellent. Better divers than the 2 of you have failed to meet the required standard, so be plenty careful with your attitude going in.
In saying that, if you need any help, or have any questions, I am happy to assist where I can.

JD

JD, i see your point, but by no means was  i trying to compare the two, just simply stating that i place great value on the GUE training than   CDAA training..... dont get me wrong, its is , to a degree a good agency of training, the content fundamentals are good, just the techniques are old and outdated!!! Regardless of which agency you prefer to believe in, we can all say the current courses touches on most things that need to taught, it also teaches of alot of old and useless cr*p!!!!

No way i think because im GUE trained that the pen course will be a walk in the park........what i was saying, im sure there are plenty of current pen divers, that at their current diving standard, would and should prob fail the course  if they had to redo it tomorrow..... not due level of knowledge.... because of their skill level which has fallen, due to becoming complacent as big 'tank divers'!!

I agree some of what we learn is crap, and useless information (GPS Datums anyone?), but the CDAA record speaks for itself. Obviously our training is doing what it was designed to do in the beginning, ie keep people alive in caves.

Talking to Tank guides, the newer guys have skills the older original members may not have. There are some older guys who have NFI too. Problem is, although they may not have perfect trim and can pull off the perfect heli turn, they have more cave experience and have dragged themselves out of some pretty nasty situations. Sure they dont look as nice in the water, but when the shit hits the fan they have the experience to get themselves and someone else out. They have been there and done it more times than we have had hot dinners. Basically, even though the skill level may have gotten a bit 'lazy', these guys have the runs on the board and should be respected as such.

Rob, care to comment?

JD

isnt it easier not to get into sh*t in the first place.... then you wouldnt need to get out of it????
the people that are good at it prob do it all the time.......sounds like a dangerous game of lotto

Really?
Although I admit some skills will make getting in the shit less likely, it will happen. The guys who I am referring to pioneered cave diving in Australia. You are lucky to have excellent training, reliable equipment which is purchasable off the shelf, and lovely well marked holes to dive in. They didnt. They made gear, had no buoyancy vests, used sub standard gear and survived. Dived single tanks. Reels were a piece of wood with twine. We are lucky to have all this safety gear, reliable regs, a choice of buoyancy compensators and fantastic training.
You can dive your whole career and never have an incident if you stick to the known. Start pushing boundaries and things change. Get out of your comfort zone, and not know whats around the next bend. Take skiing for example. Once you learn, you never need crash again, just stick to the easy slopes and enjoy. Start going faster, steeper or more rugged, and your chance of a crash increases. Diving is no different, however we have the guys who made mistakes before us to learn from.
Seriously, if you think you will never have an incident because of your excellent skills and training, please remind me of this if we ever go diving.....

JD

Some very good points made here JD. In my opinion anyway.

Hi Karl. Hey I'm curious, are you implying that JJ has no strengths and weaknesses or is it you are implying he doesn't realize what they are?

Some very good points on both sides. I see where Karl is coming from as GUE training, wether it be Fundies, Tech or Cave ,places great emphasis on preventing problems before they occur. This then becomes a natural way of thinking about your diving and causes some head scratching when observing divers having problems that are easily preventable. Some well explained points of view from you JD.
Hang on ,this can't be right, this DOES seem to be a serious conversation!!!
Oh well I'm sure PH can fix it. :D :D :D

P.S I think all CDAA Pen instructors are GODS and should be treated as such. (Pen course in October) ;D ;D ;D

does anyone know the dates of any up and coming Fundies courses?????

 ;D

ps On... don't be a flog like your mate....and good luck with the pen course too!

Paul, I'm shocked, It wasn't that long ago that you suggested that Karl  , quote" should give your mate 'ON' the 'lemon and sars' he is a *NON-GOOEY-DIVER*" unquote, on another forum.Now you reckon I should do the same to him!! ???

You really are FUJAK material.

I call that the "reverse reach around"

JD

Re GUE trained divers failing Pen & cave courses. Not knowing what GUE training the persons involved have received, lets assume that if they have been able to pass a Tech1,Cave1 level course then their trim, bouyancy and general in water capability are squared away.

I don't include Fundies in this description as it is an entry level course designed to introduce the skill sets required,that with practice, will enable the diver to proceed to Tech1 etc with a reasonable chance of success.

This suggests to me that there may be a psychological reason, ie cave, pen environment contributing to the course failures.

Another possibility is that they were just having a bad day, but surely the course structure would take this into account in some way.

Any details available to follow this line of reasoning? No names etc of course.   

Not sure which instructor etc these guys did courses with, but good divers (in my opinion) none the less. Mostly are zealots with a few exceptions.
I dont think the environment had much to do with it, but mindset certainly did. They were all a bit "I have passed GUE courses, the hardest in the business, what is this pissy little CDAA course going to teach me that I dont already know? I could do this with my eyes shut with 1 arm tied behind my back" sort of mentality.
The CDAA courses have the potential to bring any diver unstuck. I have seen great divers fail, be it from any agency. The pen course in particular is 75% mental. Follow the dive plan, have it 110% etched into your brain before you start. Once in the water, think nothing but the plan. Ask questions beforehand. Not every instructor can explain everything in a way everyone will understand. If in doubt, ask.
READ YOUR MANUAL!!!! It is there for a reason. Ian and I were prepared for every dive before we were given the brief. People were wandering around asking "I wonder what we are doing on this dive" before pretty much every dive. The fact Ian and I knew was lost on them. We were at Pines when someone asked how come we knew all of this. Were we getting heads up from the instructors (GY was instructing, and people knew we were mates)? People were actually surprised when we told them it was in the manual!
Do not be complacent. Do not think you are better than the course. Do not think it will be a walk in the park. Go into it with the right attitude and you will enjoy it, and maybe even learn something.
Good luck. If you want to talk beforehand, let me know.

JD

. Do not think you are better than the course. Do not think it will be a walk in the park. Go into it with the right attitude and you will enjoy it, and maybe even learn something.
Good luck. If you want to talk beforehand, let me know.

JD
[/quote]

and if you do come unstuck (forwhat ever reason) cop it on the chin, don't blame anyone learn from it and if needed stay and complete your theory!

good luck

H

Oh, and DO NOT go to the pub for a few beers before the exam and get there late... ;D ;D

JD

who did that

Card please

Read your manual??

Neanderthals like ph can read such in depth manuals rick, hes wait for the 'book on tape' version

Gooza please re-read your post and then advise us all on who is the neanderthal


flog!

Sorry, i mean you PH, i dont have all day to re read my posts.... bigger fish to fry!