rantFUJAK

Ok so who would like to have a debate on webbing vs harness eg DR transplate and why can't one be DIR and use a harness? why is webbing a DIR and GUE essential?

PMH

Paul, I'm impressed. Great thread. I am interested to see why myself, apart from the standard answer 'failure points', I dont know why either.

JD

yes I will be interested in the failure point vs cutting free when getting stuck arguement

I dont know of any failures  but know of one near cutting free episode(webbing) and one stuck but able to unclip (transpac)  episode...both in the same place too

PMH

Yeah great post Paul, keep it up.

One reason, compare likelyhood of needing to cut yourself out of a harness as opposed to likelyhood of plastic quick releases failing. Gets back to removing problem areas before they become issues


RN

I do enjoy my popularity!!!

Rick you are missing my point a bit and this thread is an example of my frustration and somewhat dislike of the DIR/GUE mentality.

Firstly does anyone know of any plastic buckles failing through a dive on a DR style harness?? I for one have not and I have been using these styles of harness (alpha and DR) for ten years and have never had a problem nor have ever seen one exist on a buddy or fellow diver. May I also remind everyone that these type of buckle are used on mountaineering packs around the world and I would be interested to know if any were the cause of failed attemps on Everest.

Whislt I get the gist of r the 'reduce the failure point theory I think this is far less of a problem as apposed to having to cut yourself free in a cave restriction and then and 800m swim home.

The other issue is that that a webbing style harness does not suit all body shapes in my view and is very uncompforable for larger chested people (like JD and RB for eg.  ;D) I prefer and find it more comfortable to have something I can tighten and the use of the stirnum strap, so if I wanted to be GUE then I would have to wear a webbing thus making my dive very uncomfortable and distracting me from what my mind should be on during the dive...so how is this then doing it right?

So perhaps this requirement of harness style has the potentially to create more problems than not.

So.....why can't I ...

• learn how to helicopter turn
  learn how to fin backwards
  learn the deco on the run theory
  learn the team thing
  learn the reach around
  learn how to look the same as my buddies
  learn to how to dive trimix to 45m for $5000
  get number plates for my car DIR or GUE
   yada yada yada......in a buckle styled harness?
  
  Jokes aside seriously I struggle with this concept that GUE preach, as I don't think it makes sence
  
  I have no doubt that GUE have plenty positives to offer the dive community...but
  
  cheers
  
  H

I consider the situations when a diver needs to remove their equipment, and then the method employed. Given the upcoming Penetration course, the question can then be asked, does equipment removal and restriction negotiation need to be a practised skill, which I believe it should be. We need a concrete pipe in Gouldens, with an access hole at the top. It would be a great fixed restriction to go through for training. I digress...

1. Harness removal. When would equipment need to be removed ? severe entanglement or restriction preventing movement. For entanglement, I would hope that the buddy is more of an asset than anything gained by removing equipment. For negotiating a restriction, where one cannot reverse, removal of equipment is very, very difficult. I almost pulled my shoulder out trying to get mine off ! KS has a good point about prevention of issues. I should have used a different equipment configuration for this section of cave. Side mounts would have been much more effective and prevented the issue. Its important to remember that at the point where equipment needs to be removed, buoyancy control isn't required. Hence deflating the wing is essential, though it makes equipment very heavy ( regardless of webbing or harness.

2. How to remove a Harness. I consider the risk of stabbing myself with my knife and puncturing my drysuit much greater than just it being difficult to remove. Besides, the webbing is damn thick, and sawing away at it would take a while. I'd think that if you did do it, you'd definitely cut your drysuit ( Now I've got two drysuits, I should test it, can i borrow someone's harness ? ). Now, once it's cut, what do you do once you've dealt with the issue ? Based on all this, cutting a webbing harness for me isn't an option I'd consider. Removal is quite difficult when underwater in a restriction in a webbing harness. A quick release buckle on one shoulder strap could be a good idea if you're planning on removing your equipment regularly. In this case though, i'd think use of side mounts would be a better diving strategy than having a quick release buckle.

3. Although I've never had a plastic quick release fail, I don't like them primarily because i find them bulky. The only time I was using them on my transpac was to clip it to the clothes line to dry. Also, mounting a back up light on the shoulder straps under the arms, with the quick releases there, makes it bulky under my arms.

Summary: Webbing harnesses will not fail, though I would be confident in quick releases also. Cutting a harness for me is not an option, removal of equipment much preferred, though best is to avoid the risk entirely by an equipment configuration suitable for the rock strata being negotiated (ie: Side mount).

PMH (or whoever, sockys abound)

Expanding the discussion from Harness V Webbing to the general philosophy of GUE is a big ask. Equiptment configuration is only one (small) part of the GUE/DIR concept and any of these areas taken in isolation can be argued to the cows come home. The reasoning behind all aspects of the GUE/DIR method of diving are fully explained in the fundamentals course or you may want to borrow my copy of "The fundamentals of better diving" by Jarrod Jablonski. Not trying to be smart here its just that this argument comes up continually and the information to answer your questions is out there. Its no big secret.

Regards rick

Well said RN,

The compromise to you PH, is do the course in a 'compliant' harness, then adjust it as you require after the course. There is no law to goven how you will dive post-course. You may actually be in a better position to determine how best to do things for what suits you. If you like being able to tighten up your equipment underwater, then I suggest it's too loose for you anyway, however, feel free to use adjustable straps after the course.
For the benefit that you'll get from the course, it's one small thing to do for 4 days of diving.
However, you've been on about this for years, stirring the same pot about doing the course. Just go ahead and do it. At least then also you will have a much better point to debate. RN made a good point about not just focussing on equipment, look at the whole system. 

thats one of the points I am making...why should I "comprimise" (to me) how I dive (that works successfully and very comfortably) for the sake of a course! So Ian are you suggesting that GUE ask divers to "comprimise" the way they dive to fit in with their system and philosophies...I wouldn't train with any agency who asks me to comprimise the way I dive that does not feel write for me. Not sure how other feel about this.

Ok so for those of you who have done Fundies...could you do the course in a DR harness and BP and complete the course successfully.

Getting back to the original question...those of you who have switched from a TP harness to now webbing, why did you and also (be honest here) which is more comfortable?...and have any switched back and if so why???

PH

One of the strengths of the GUE system of diving is the consistency in gear configuration,Gas mixes, approaches to deco and dive planning etc. To compromise this system for the sake of perceived individuality reduces the effectiveness of the system overall. I would suggest that you dive in whatever way suits you, no problem. Unfortunately this would preclude you from benefiting from GUE training.

Most of you guys know this already, and have heard the story, but here goes.

IT and myself, with Rob B are diving Tank. We had been running sidemounts up this particular path before, once with a stage I believe, so it was no big deal in sidemounts. We had not been there for quite some time, and had heard a rumour that backmounts were possible now. As it is a shortcut, we decided to give it a shot, me in the front, followed by IT, then RB. I got almost all the way through before getting well and truly stuck. Cylinders jammed onto the roof (with a projection in between them, like I said stuck!), chest pressing onto the rock enough so I could breathe, but not take a huge breath*, and vis about 6". I had to settle myself for about a minute (felt like hours), then decide to remove gear. I managed to slide my hand down and undo the waist buckle (I dont wear a crotch strap) and tried to slide out. I couldnt move. I slid my arm up and undid my right shoulder strap buckle to allow me to move sideways, which I managed to do. I snagged myself on the drysuit inflator, which ran under my right arm to the suit, but after moving right I was able to reach it and unplug, something I was unable to do when strapped in. I swung my gear in front of me after sorting out a twist in the reg hose and pushed through the restriction.
I, like most people, wear minimal weight when diving twins, but what I did wear was sandwiched between the wing and harness. Because of this, I was quite light when I exited the restriction, and rocketed straight for the roof about 1m above. Luckily I had a good grip on my gear, and managed to drag it up with me and inflate it a fraction. I now wear whatever weight I have to on a belt to stop this from happening again.
Long story short, I waited for about 2 or 3 minutes for someone to come out behind me, but knowing there was no way I could go down a restriction without my gear on with the way I was weighted, I left to go around the long way. To be honest, even if I was weighted correctly, I dont think I would have gone back down after that. If there was no other way out, sure, but I had an option and I chose to swim.
After a 30 minute swim (alone) around the long way, I met RB and IT at the start of the restriction. We shook hands (as all polite cave divers do when they meet) and left for the exit.
Ian (I found out later) was also stuck behind me, resulting in the 'almost dislocated my shoulder' post from him above. Why did he almost dislocate his shoulder? No buckles, and he couldnt bring himself to cut his webbing. Why? He says its because it expensive, I think he couldnt bear the thought of cutting through one of the 'H' symbols in the dark!

Now, those fault ridden clips that Dive Rite persist on putting on there harnesses saved my bacon. I doubt that I could have cut myself out in the position I was in, but if I could have, I had about a 1 hour swim ahead of me with a cut harness which would have been uncomfortable at best, and probably a complete PITA. Gas was OK, as I exited with about 50 bar in each cylinder (independents) and a full stage. I have had the same Dive Rite Transpac since I started diving in about 1999. Its a bit faded thanks to chlorine, but still works like the day I bought it. It has carried twins down rockpiles and ito caves on the Nullarbor many times, been bashed and crashed, but nothing has ever broken on it, including the 2 buckles under the armpits which are a failure point.

JD

*I think this is what gave me the most clacker factor. I have been stuck before, but I could always take a soothing and cleansing big deep breath. Here I couldnt, and it was not a nice feeling.

this take this discussion to another point of asking if the GUE/DIR system is not entirely suited to Australian cave diving...I seem to think it is suited to scootering through big tunnels???

any thoughts

Well,
Casey recently described a restriction as 5' x 4'. That is an entrance to my garage, not a restriction!
UK divers have adapted to sump diving with sidemounts etc for the types of caves they have over there. We have sort of a hybrid between the two, not quite sumps, but smaller tunnels with tighter restrictions.
I have no doubt the system is far superior for the type of diving they do. It works, and has been proven. No arguement there.

JD

this thread has been going over 24hrs...and no personal attacks!!!!!

hmmmmmm?????

Ah but the thread is young and we haven't heard from Karl for a while.

Too busy making sock puppets to log on......

JD

I wouldn't say that a DIR system is unsuited to Australian Cave diving. That is too much of a generalisation to make. It is certainly very useful for some caves, and unsuited for others. For example, as RN and KS will explain, dropping twin 12's into Dave's Cave is a bit silly. A single cylinder and stage, or a modified system of that, would be much more effective, due to difficult above water access.

And for the ocean, I think that a DIR rig is easily the best available for Deep OC ocean diving. Again, lets not focus on just equipment, but look at the system overall, including training, fitness, teamwork, etc.

I give up. Things being taken out of context, paraphrasing. etc. Of course rebreathers are useful and more so for deep diving. Just because someone has done GUE training, doesn't mean they cant get bent.
Alcohol use is discussed for obvious reasons, it's effects on hydration and overall fitness. Same as smoking.
PH, no one will bother wasting their time to convince you to do a course that clearly you have no interest in doing. Undertaking training, whatever it may be, requires some change. That's why you do training, to have additional skills and knowledge. You don't rock up to a Motorcycle course that says " Riders must wear leathers and a helmet " without Leathers and a helmet. Did you balk when you did your CavSink course about not being allowed to wear a snorkel ? What about twin cylinders ? Did you argue that you'd been diving a single cylinder for so long without problems that you shouldn't have to change how you do things ? Did you think Jarrod thought he could do an Inspo RB course by using a PRISM or KISS ? the point is, you know the equipment requirements, they are clearly laid out. If you're not going to be equiped like that, then dont do the course. Simple.

Ian your examples aren't relevent...we are not talking about a "harness' course (hmmm PADI could make some dosh from that perhaps).

As for my cav sink I did it on a single tank back then (with a pony) cause you could in 1998. When I moved to twins I had no isse and like the idea of carrying more gas. When I went to twins I spoke to plenty of people, tried different ways bought a manifold and watch a number of time the JJ GI video (dvd not around then) of which I enjoyed until a few years later I realised that GI had fathered MK, DL, RN, KS, JC and many more and decided it wasn't for me.

back in about 2000 when Paul Leslie started looking into GUE courses (back then ST still had something to gain from Paul so he was still hanging around him) he emailed me the blurb to do a course...once I read it I thought this is a dictatorship not a dive course (plus I don't look good with a shaved head in orange PJ's))"must have single webbing harness" "you can't do our course if you are a smoker",  (or a careful JD and CL don't be flogs apparently...well f**k me now they are dictating lifestyle changes...hense why I diclined back then. Time went by (during which I met you in your transpac and torquoise womens DUI) I saw many divers fall victim to the GUE phenomina and change as divers(which is fine) but also as people...nup I am happy to learn but not become a zealot....So Ian there's a bit of history.....if GUE relaxed a smidge in areas that will not affect their idiologies then they WILL become inviting to people like myself and many other I'm sure.


So back to my original post......why can't I be DIR in a DR harness and a hogarthian rig!!!!  so far I have only seen that a harness with buckles is SAFER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PH
Me give up too, but in closing you can be as "DIR" as you want to be, picking and choosing bits and pieces to build a hogarthian configuration. You broadened  the post to include GUE, as per my previous response. Use what you like, just dont expect GUE to restructure their excellent training system to suit. :-*

Sorry, left one word of my previous post. *NON-GOOEY-DIVER*s ;D

Where do i start......... >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Thanks Mod

PH, in the words of The Panics "Don't fight it, you don't know what it is"

you boys simply can't justify what you preach...I have asked basic questions and you have no answers for us....

EDIT   "Don't fight it ,IF you don't know what it is"

Not worth waste the time anymore, Ph, could we EVER offer you the answers that you would be satisfied with ....... we try to explain them, telling you the answers but you decide to argue, bottom line, if you are that interested and want to know sooo much and want ALL of your questions answered..... stop being a stubborn tight arse and do a fundies course with Gid, he'll spend all night discussing the philosphy with you :) :) :) :) :)

Make sure you bring plenty of no-doz!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I realise this may cause a small nuclear reaction, but why, if it is so obvious, can you GUE chaps not answer Harv's question? why does it need to be refered to Gideon?

too obvious?


And I'm surprised at the "it's too hard" response from you "fervid" Halcyon supprters! whilst it is known far and wide that Paul is a shit stirrer in the world class section of humanity! :o Respect for that by the way, I know for a fact that you Karl for one, pride yorself for the exact same attitude,
and Rick who is very committed to his diving and quite tolerant has gone the other way!!
 Mr Taylor the consumate teacher, one who seen both sides has suddenly lost one of those eyes?
just an observation

G'day Quigs!..i don't believe we have met but welcome!

yes it seems the boys go to ground when really they don't know why they do things other than they are simply told to by a higher power......it is a shame that some good brains go to waste and become just more members of the floc!!!! relating to my original question...if hyperthetically GUE supported quick release harnesses they would be using them and that is a fact (well???)...so their reasons for using webbing harnesses are not based on what they feel is right for them but doing as they are told!!!!

yes it is well known that Ian likes an each way bet when it comes to his divin ( whilst he is very good at it...for fuck sake make up your mind.

H

ps by the way Ian is their any truth to the rumour going around that you are going to purchase a CCR next year (not very GUE of you?)

PH & MQ

Original post by PH

 "Ok so who would like to have a debate on webbing vs harness eg DR transplate and why can't one be DIR and use a harness? why is webbing a DIR and GUE essential?

Comprises two parts

Question 1           "why can't one be DIR and use a harness?"

Answer 1              You can, just not on GUE courses. As per previous responses from both myself
                          and Ian, DIR and GUE two different things. Be as DIR as you want to be.

Question 2           "why is webbing a DIR and GUE essential"

Answer 2             It's not a DIR essential, it's a GUE essential. As for GUE reasons read responses to   
                         previous posts

Hope this clears it up for you

Gents,

I can't really comment on the comfort of a DR harness, rather than the H, as I haven't worn one. I have had a transpac for years though as you all know. I do prefer the harness, as it feels a lot more simple on me than the transpac. As I said in previous posts, I find the quick release buckle bulky when I put back up lights on top of them, rather than the snug feel of smaller back up lights against the webbing of a single piece harness.
Just looking at the DR harness though, with the D ring joining the two harness straps, I think it would be uncomfortable, but also, could potentially be accidentally clipped off to. I like having my stuff clipped off to just the D rings available on the DIR harness configuration. Makes things easier to find when i want them. Having an extra D ring as part of the harness strap, may be something that could interfere and be accidentally clipped off to. As said though, I don't know. Try it and lets see what you think.
I used to use Ikelite and SL4s for back ups, stowed under the arm, and found them bulky. The smaller body scouts I much prefer.
As I said in previous posts, I don't believe that quick release buckles will fail. The situation where they will fail will be out of the water, with a lot of load on them ( heavy cylinders, hauling gear ). These buckles are used on Mountain packs for hiking. Having an adjustable strap is useful in this environment, as you can have your rain coat on, thick jacket, or T shirt, all in one day, so being able to tighten the strap is useful. If I'm always in my same drysuit and undergarment, I dont need to adjust it. The quick release buckles are strong, thats a given. However ( again as i said in previous post ) I find them bulky on my equipment, and just not being used. As said in a previous post, for me, the option of cutting my harness free isn't one I'd consider. So looking at the balance of it all, I prefer the harness configuration, and the hindsight of saying if I need to dive in tight cave, then I can use my sidemount rig, which is a lot more sensible.
Good discussion overall though, and glad to have a thoughtful discussion with you all.

Forgot to add, re me getting a CCR next year, you need to remember that any dive equipment I purchase is multiplied by two :), and the budget definitely doesn't extend to that in the near future.

Dual Cab diesel ute maybe, CCR, not so maybe....

if a hilux becomes the GUE vehicle of choice...then mines on the market!!!!

Good work PH, completely IGNORING my previous post about a harness vs quick releases.

So Ian acknowledges that it is NOT a failure point, but simplicity and comfort. Thanks Ian.

I dive a harness on the Inspo, and I had to use a chest strap, otherwise the harness digs into my armpits and is really uncomfortable. I like the straps to come over my shoulder and head straight down, rather than just hanging over the shoulder joint itself. (Lift your arm up now, and see where the joint ends. I like it to sit there, between the joint and neck)
This is what I think PH is talking about. I find a conventional harness uncomfortable for me, and he obviously does too. Why do I have to dive in something which I find uncomfortable? Because they say so. I have no problem eliminating the clips (or failure points) as I do not have them on the Inspo, but I hate it sitting on my shoulder joint. Maybe it is my athletic build? ;)

JD

JD remember the weekend at Australias premier cave site( not mentioning tank) when Rb was gearing up in his H harness? and I was watching him trying to get into this awkward arrangement...I said to Rob surely that isn't comfortable... of which he replied this might be the lasy weekend I use it ........ (quotes are not exact)  later Rob then started using a DR transplate harness.........(this is not in anyway a slurr on RB)

Rob it is probably a good idea for you to comment here???????

I believe that in this instance the GUE hierarchy are very wrong and hey should reconsider their ignorance to REALITY!

H

ps JD I have seen a number of GUE divers with harness tucked under their armpits!!!

Thats True Harvs...

Problem is, and I am surprised nobody has said it yet, the answer is correct fitting. One size fits all, provided it is fitted correctly. This is crap. Ian likes them because they are comfortable for him, I dont like them because they are not for me. Someone explaining to me that "No JD, these are very comfortable" does not cut it. How the hell do they know what is comfortable for me?
I find a shoe comfortable that someone else doesn't. Do I argue with them and tell them they are wrong?

JD

JD I am thinking that you and I could be the new gurus in diving,,,wanna shave your head first?

Guys,
Agree that fitting the harness properly is important, and it does take some time getting the straps just right. I know it's comfy for me, and I have a pretty awkward build to fit something that rigid too. There are a lot of big americans diving this system, and small females also. Getting the fit right is important. One of the things that makes getting the harness difficult to put on and take off is having too much air in the wing. It's the most common reason why people find them difficult to remove.
As RN said, 'Fundamentals of Better Diving ' by JJ does cover fitting a backplate. Not everyone has the same build (bigger chests, hips, backs, etc ) and for some people it may dig in. If the shoulder straps are too tight, then the straps will pull outwards on the chest and dig in under the arms. Loosen them off (not so much that the plate sags too low) and it should be ok. Try it and see.

ok so when is the second gavin arriving???????

hmmm interesting post!
I have had a quick release fail, on my first trip to the nullabor however this was due largely to me dropping my tanks on it ;D and this was the first one since starting diving in 95 and cave diving in 98, i have heard other people having them fail but once again due to neglect miss treatment of gear etc
I remember this exact discussion during my pen course in 2000 between myself two instructors on my side and a pen instructor who is sadly no longer with us. It was stated by one that I would not pass the pen course 3/4 of the way thru because i was at the time using a el cheapo copy of the Diverite transpac (i cant remember the name ???) anyhow it was said that I need to change to a webbing system if I expect to pass and this needs to be done now! because there is no way i could neg restrictions in the harness i had etc, this of course caused myself to arc up and argue the point (nearly causing a boot of the course!) so thanks to two of the instructors backing me up i passed the pen course even after some very intensive restriction neg and gear removal replacement etc designed to try and make me fail :o.
i have used a webbing system in the past (borrowed one from a mate b4 I could afford a transpac) and like JD decided it was not comfortable for me and being a large bloke who isnt terribly flexable getting in and out it was a pain (yes it was set up for me) so i cannot fathom why a training agency would force it on people? Yes Ian you have to turn up to a motorcycle course with a helmet and gloves but they dont force you to wear a full face instead of your open face helmet or ditch your kevlar gloves and state leather is the go!!
I have had several incidents in the past where the removal of gear was needed from moving my vastness thru restrictions, stuck due to some foolhardy idea that i could actually fit to chasin a cray and having the clips saved my arse (or got the cray!)
To state that the harness system is not to be used because of the off hand chance a clip will fail is just another example of Gue DIr stating false crap in order for them to sell you a new system. Name one other training agency that owns or has a interest in a gear manufacturer !!!
Use the right tools for the dive at hand if a harness works for you in a cave use it or vice versa dont let some training agency try to sell you another system cos yours doesnt match in with the rest of them.

I love it when people agree with Harv's esp. when showing GUE are wrong

H
 ;D

Use the right tool for the job is exactly right.....Gue talk about team equipment and there uses... if it made better sense to use a b/p with clips, the whole team should do the same.That would be working within Gue constraints......

But if you weren't intending to try to squeeze through holes in which you don't fit through....webbing without clips would be fine?????

Gue talk about planning your dives and dive objectives..... generally you wouldnt plan to go through such narrow restrictions... and if so for what real purpose, you must have a good reason to subject your self to such a big commitment, risk getting stuck and removing gear all for what???? If you dont agree with this statement, you prob wont like Gue, but that is their mentality, one which i think is smart,just the same as padi and ssi teach different ways of donating air to an out of gas diver........both work well, but they differ, does that mean one is wrong and the other right ??? ???

Thats the way Gue divers choose to dive, just as other choose there own way based on facts they prefer to trust the most!!!

Ive dived for cray in a dive rite transpac with only a single side mount recently......but that day i wasn't a gue diver, nor did i say i was...gue is a philosophy and a tool one uses with a team, its is not the only way of diving, but if you are wanting to be a gue diver on a particular day, you would do as you are taught....there is nothing wrong for a gue trained diver to do a solo dive along a jetty in 6m water........it would only be wrong if they said they were doing it in a gue manner....  Get my drift!!



My 2 cents
ks


 

Some great points there.

Gooey, believe it or not, you are actually making sense here. It is the zealot attitude that you wearing a single tank (or more correctly not wearing a single tank but taking it along) are a dangerous diver waiting to die with that configuration. Were you unsafe because of it?

The conversation I had with JJ was if you are happy with what you are wearing, and that is what your team is doing, great, you have figured out a system which works for you and the people you dive with. He did not say we were wrong, he was right. He also stated at Oztek he would not recomment the RB80 to people interested in rebreathers, as the training and purchase is far too much to start from scratch.

This is the attitude that will progress GUE, and I guess that is why they changed the name to distance themselves from the DIR zealots.

JD

As for gear manufactures....as the story goes, Gue approached all of the leading manufactures and asked if they would be willing to make a line of gear similar to what halcyon have.... no one came to the party, so using a bit of initiative, they created their own brand.......

No different than tony davis teaching side mount workshops in a dive rite trans pac and promoting dive rite products at the same time...... :P :P

that's crap Tony Davis is not a training agency....his sidemount workshop was specific to how to use the relevent DR products

it was a side mount work shop actually,  he could of been done in a zeagle b/p and wing!!

what???? ???

  no it was a side mount workshop.........

Karl, TD showing his gear at a workshop......is totally different to GUE & halcyon..or am I stupid?

H ???

Spelling Mr Harvey.

Side Mount Workshop vs a sidemount work shop.

The devil is in the details I'm afraid.

JD

what ??? ???

Bueller........Bueller........Anyone? Bueller........

JD

WTF does that mean????

theres alot on this subject harvs you dont get, with all of the 'whats', 'wtf' and ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

clearly this topic maybe too confusing for you....

Valid Pop Culture reference to Ferris Bueller's Day Off http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091042/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091042/)

Classic comedy movie of the 80's

Another quote from the same film that could well apply here:
"I am not going to sit on my ass as the events that affect me unfold to determine the course of my life. I'm going to take a stand. I'm going to defend it. Right or wrong, I'm going to defend it."