rantFUJAK

this was something that JJ was talking about at the Oztek before last

any views

http://www.diveoz.com.au/discussion_forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19856

Testing, testing ,1-2

here he is.......

a perfectlt serious topic ....and no-one has an opinion

maybe fujak is totally dead

Interesting indeed.

Aimed at someone new wanting to learn to dive who already has & is familiar with:
Tanks/Cylinders; Regulators (one of the second-stages must be on a 5- to 7-foot/1.5- to 2-meter hose);
Backplate System; Buoyancy Compensation Device; depth-measuring device; timekeeping device; Mask and fins (non-split fins - one wonders why the call for no splits in a recreational environment - haven't they seen the Scubapro jet splits?); one cutting device; Wet Notes; Exposure suit.

Not forgetting they must hold DAN Master level insurance or equivalent (can you even get this if you're not a qualified OWD?), be a non-smoker, & also be CPR/First Aid trained.

I'd be surprised if there are any non-divers out there who would meet the course prerequisites.

As for Mr Potatohead's comments (refer diveoz) that someone would have done this GUE course if available rather than a <insert training agency here> course, IMO that might apply to a very small percentage of the potential dive student population.

Undoubtably you'll get a minority who feel the need for such a high level of training off the bat but I reckon it's a fairly safe bet that the majority won't. How many divers to you know who set out to be a cave-diver or technical diver? I wasn't interested in cave-diving until I sat outside Allendale & watched George & JD come out of the hole.

What about qualification acceptance? Will said diver be abe to roll up to, say, Walindi or Rapa Nui & flip out their GUEOWD card & get onto a dive?

Oh, and lastly - having met all the above they want how much for the course...?

Kudos for devising a course aimed at technical diving as an OOBE but with limited appeal I think. IMO those who wish to do so will progress through their diving as their interest grows however it's a fact that the vast majority doesn't go very much farther than their OWC.

Further, no matter what the quality of training is like you still end up with a newly qualified diver popping out the other end.

C

Craig,

some really good points about Pre-requisites for the course. I think that the equipment configuration for the course is fine. A lot of instructors are teaching PADI courses in DIR configurations quite successfully. there is no PADI standard that says you can't donate the reg from your mouth. Gear remove and replace is quite easy on the surface, given that the wing/plate is neutral, so you just need to deflate the wing.

The big issue will be getting this out there to people. Why would I sign up to do the $4k+ course, over 8-10 days when I can do it for $500 or so. At the entry level of a persons dive career, they hardly know if they are going to continue diving, and other commitments may change. I equate this to learning to fly, and doing your first solo flight, and aerobatics all in the space of two weeks. One thing not mentioned here is the burn out factor of training. Some student I have had over the course of two separate weekends have been burnt out from the course. Imagine 8 days continuous ! Potentially they scare a lot of people away from diving.

I'm sure no split fins has been included due to the inability to make small precise fin movements with splits.

I think that people who are after some 'advanced' form of open water training, say, those people mates with Tec divers / cave divers, would be referred to OW instructors who are tec divers. They may equip them in a DIR rig for their PADI OW course, learn to dive in that, but complete the PADI course. Be a lot cheaper, less intense, and far more achieveable, and still a good start to a tec diving future. (JD did the same thing with his OW with GY).

Getting a DIR configuration right from the start is good though. Lots of people out there are buying backplates for diving single cylinders, with no idea how to set it up and dive it cleanly. I've seen some shocking configurations of halcyon backplates, so formal training in it is a good idea.

My recommendation would be do a PADI OW course to start, do some dives first, then a GUE Fundamentals. Cost would be way less, and the diver has more experience prior to the Fundamentals course.

My 2cents

"I wasn't interested in cave-diving until I sat outside Allendale & watched George & JD come out of the hole."

hehehe  and they hadn't even been diving yet!!! hehehehhehe sorry couldn't help...now back to being serious

"Why would I sign up to do the $4k+ course, over 8-10 days when I can do it for $500 or so"

ahhhh...because you spent $5k to dive trimix to 45m when you could have spent $1.5k to learn it to 100m

durrr

hehehehehe...I couldn't resist

OK, my $0.02 worth.....

When I decided to learn to dive (well, I had been thinking of doing it for some time, and it was Susie P who dragged me in) I had no idea if it was with PADI, SSI or the young jewish divers club, and nor did I care! Not only that, I thought once you got your ticket, that was it. Like learning to drive, you learn, do the test and that was that.....

Would I have selected a different agency? Probably not. PADI is the biggest worldwide agency and gave me a ticket to dive anywhere in the world! ANYWHERE!!!!! I was sold, and after doing my course, I thought there was none better. The PADI system is the best 'system' of learning there is, bar none. The only way it could be better is if you had to use the PADI brand of equipment to do the course, which was manufactured by them. Of course this would never happen, would it?

Nice idea, and I am sure when the zealots eventually discover women and have little mini zealots running around, that is the way they will go, but not for this little black duck.

JD

Ho Hum Booooring.   

RN, KS, would you have done if the GUE OW course if available when you learnt to dive ?

yeah but KS may have forgotton to book on and missed out..... hehehee

personally I have no issue with it as competition is healthy, I am a bit alarmed though to hear IT suggesting that instructors are teaching padi OW in a DIR way WTF is with that...........more brain washing perhaps

Maybe that's the plan. Breed a master race to remove all of those that are not worthy. Your young jewish divers club could be in trouble...

they would be too busy haggling over course fees

PH, why be alarmed ? Why not take good elements from systems and incorporate them into training courses ? would you also be alarmed that include some GUE principles/practises in CDAA training i conduct ? OMG !!!!
Unfortunately to argue with you about the 'DIR way' isnt possible as we know how closed you are to any suggestions or improvements. There is nothing in a PADI OWC that says you can't have a long hose, back up reg around neck, back plate and wing rig. Why not allow students instead of hovering vertically, to learn to hover horizontally ( ala, like REAL diving, remember when you used to do that PH ? ). Why not having them using frog kicks when swimming, stronger kick, better fine positioning etc. nothing in the PADI OWC says you cant do these things.

PH, the latest Undersea Journal (PADI Professional magazine ) shows a number of PADI instructors in DIR compliant single tank rigs ! And guess what, a DIR configuration is almost compliant with the PADI Tec Deep configuration (except without the green nitrox tank stickers on back gas cylinders ) OMG !!! OMG !!! OMG !!!!

Ian that is absolute crap! 

Another classic PH response, making use of facts, extensive research, sound, logical reasoning, and non-emotive arguments in responding to my post. Well done PH.

yeah Ian likewise!....after reading your post it seems that perhaps you are trying to create a new race of OW diver beyond the 'general skill level of those who first start diving'

many skills are perhaps left basic in an OW course to allow the lay person who is learning to dive to concentrate and grasp the skills and knowledge needed to become a newbie OW diver.!

it maybe a good idea for you to go an attend an auskick session next winter......you won't see them learning about switching the play, corridor football, kicking from fifty, etc...no they will be learning to kick in there new boots, marking, handballing etc....

you know full well I like much of a DIR system(it was called hogarthian when I started tech diving) but to start brain washing new OW divers with certain aspects of it is I think irresponsible and arrogant. PADI's style has ben tried and tested for teaching OW courses well before perhaps you were out of short pants, pull your head in.

PH, I believe that I fairly sound position to comment on this issue, from experience certifying around 80 OWC divers, and a number of technical divers in Deep Cavern and Cave.

In my time as an OW instructor, having performed three rescues, the biggest problem a lot of people face is lack of buoyancy control. The previous facility where i used to teach, I believe, was a disservice to students, as they couldn't play around and experiment with their buoyancy control. Yes, they could do a hover or fin pivot, though couldn't really fine tune their BCD control. Teaching in a large pool, it's very easy to say to students, go play for 10 minutes in the deep end of the pool, if you hit the bottom, add a little air, if you start to rise up, dump a little. 10 minutes of this while on day one of an OWC is invaluable training. I dont accept the excuse that newly certified divers are 'allowed' to have poor buoyancy control. I'm not expecting perfect, just that the person can control themselves underwater. Do you know how many students finish an OWC thinking that their BCD inflator is an 'up' button, and deflate, takes you down ? They get this impresson from being on the surface, and dont realise that it changes under the water.

I don't believe you understand the skills and knowledge needed to become a newly certified OW diver. Yes, some skills are required to be left basic, though specific knowledge is mandated by PADI for other skills ( eg: the CESA must be taught, demonstrated, and conducted by the student EXACTLY ), yet through good training and diving practises, a student should NEVER have to perform a CESA in a real diving situation. The problem ( as GUE are trying to address ) is that the newly certified OW diver has a level of skills and ability lower than that required (or expected). I personally believe GUE have gone too far the other way though, making diving seem very elusive and difficult. That is the argument and problem. Other training agencies want it to be accessible, and so people can sign up to a program, knowing they can complete it. They dont want to sign up to some huge trainiing program with a risk of failure and not passing. The problem in trying to make diving more accessible is that quality of diver skills can diminish. I think buoyancy control is an important one, that more instructors should spend more time on in a course. It actually saves time on a course, as the diver then picks up other skills a lot better, and less risk in the OW sessions. Simple things can improve a divers skill level with no increase in course time. For example, once basic hovering has been taught, and they can do it, for the next skills, I dont let them sit on the pool bottom. "Now you're divers, you can hover, so no more touching the bottom ok". They hover, learning the skill more, developing airway control, all while watching and learning another skill. Simple stuff, though really effective.

Agree about Auskick. Kicking a football and handballing it is a basic skill for football. So is buoyancy control for diving. So thats why its important to spend more time on it. You can't play corridor football if you can't kick straight into the corridor. Likewise you can't do other things in diving without some level of buoyancy control. Improved buoyancy control makes a diver more relaxed, decreasing air consumption, increasing dive time and pleasure. (Maybe you should try it sometime :) )

Well, the PADI OWC does include a brief awareness of technical diving, nitrox, rebreathers, scooters as well. It's hardly brain washing. PADI doesn't have a 'style' per se, just a teaching methodology, that is taught and reproduced by other instructors. It can be tailored to individual needs and desires. Would you do a motorbike course, wanting to ride superbikes, and then the instructor starts talking about his experience on his Honda Gullwing ? Would be a bit out of place wouldn't it.

Agree 'playtime' is very valuable in an OWC situation. One particular instructor I've DM'd for always allows some time for the students to play around in the deep end which at the very least gives them time to practice & get used to their new environment.

The only other point I'd like to make is it's a Honda Goldwing, tiger  :)

GUE courses in general,and I think the new OW will be the same,provide exceptional training in trim and buoyancy.
As described by Ians post, mastery of these primary dive skills provides the basis to progress in all round dive proficiency.
If you do not get these right, forget the rest.
I agree with PH (shock horror) that the full on approach of the GUE courses does not agree with everyone but anything that raises the bar,especially in trim and bouyancy can only be a good thing and ,as with the DIR concept in general,(or hogathian to keep Paul happy) aspects of the structure will filter down to the general (Non GUE diver) dive population.

Its (GUE OW) not for everyone, neither are the rest of the GUE course offerings, but time will prove the validity of the course and teaching structures.

GUE1
 

I love how IT puts so much effort into his post....but fuck they are too long too read at work

Perhaps if i made my post into a cartoon strip of one line, perhaps 4 frames or so ? probably a little closer to your prefered type and length of literature ?

Mr T you give me way too much credit!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, IT what were you thinking??

One panel ala Farside would do it. ;D ;D

I think that Gary Larson's use of sarcasm, wit and social commentary would quickly overwhelm old PH. I was thinking something more along the lines of Fred Bassett.

" I'm up, I'll fetch master's shoes "
" Why isn't everyone in the house awake, they should be in the kitchen by now "
" Where is my owner, he needs to be at work in 5 minutes "
" Oh, it's saturday "

I think that is more attuned to the level of information that can be digested by PH.

" I'm up, I'll fetch master's shoes "

Ian that is what one can expect to hear from you whilst staying at JJ or St house!