webbing vs harness

[onwardsupwards]

PH & MQ

Original post by PH

 "Ok so who would like to have a debate on webbing vs harness eg DR transplate and why can't one be DIR and use a harness? why is webbing a DIR and GUE essential?

Comprises two parts

Question 1           "why can't one be DIR and use a harness?"

Answer 1              You can, just not on GUE courses. As per previous responses from both myself
                          and Ian, DIR and GUE two different things. Be as DIR as you want to be.

Question 2           "why is webbing a DIR and GUE essential"

Answer 2             It's not a DIR essential, it's a GUE essential. As for GUE reasons read responses to   
                         previous posts

Hope this clears it up for you

[Ian T]

Gents,

I can't really comment on the comfort of a DR harness, rather than the H, as I haven't worn one. I have had a transpac for years though as you all know. I do prefer the harness, as it feels a lot more simple on me than the transpac. As I said in previous posts, I find the quick release buckle bulky when I put back up lights on top of them, rather than the snug feel of smaller back up lights against the webbing of a single piece harness.
Just looking at the DR harness though, with the D ring joining the two harness straps, I think it would be uncomfortable, but also, could potentially be accidentally clipped off to. I like having my stuff clipped off to just the D rings available on the DIR harness configuration. Makes things easier to find when i want them. Having an extra D ring as part of the harness strap, may be something that could interfere and be accidentally clipped off to. As said though, I don't know. Try it and lets see what you think.
I used to use Ikelite and SL4s for back ups, stowed under the arm, and found them bulky. The smaller body scouts I much prefer.
As I said in previous posts, I don't believe that quick release buckles will fail. The situation where they will fail will be out of the water, with a lot of load on them ( heavy cylinders, hauling gear ). These buckles are used on Mountain packs for hiking. Having an adjustable strap is useful in this environment, as you can have your rain coat on, thick jacket, or T shirt, all in one day, so being able to tighten the strap is useful. If I'm always in my same drysuit and undergarment, I dont need to adjust it. The quick release buckles are strong, thats a given. However ( again as i said in previous post ) I find them bulky on my equipment, and just not being used. As said in a previous post, for me, the option of cutting my harness free isn't one I'd consider. So looking at the balance of it all, I prefer the harness configuration, and the hindsight of saying if I need to dive in tight cave, then I can use my sidemount rig, which is a lot more sensible.
Good discussion overall though, and glad to have a thoughtful discussion with you all.

[Ian T]

Forgot to add, re me getting a CCR next year, you need to remember that any dive equipment I purchase is multiplied by two , and the budget definitely doesn't extend to that in the near future.

Dual Cab diesel ute maybe, CCR, not so maybe....

[PMH]

Forgot to add, re me getting a CCR next year, you need to remember that any dive equipment I purchase is multiplied by two , and the budget definitely doesn't extend to that in the near future.

Dual Cab diesel ute maybe, CCR, not so maybe....

if a hilux becomes the GUE vehicle of choice...then mines on the market!!!!

[Ian T]

Good work PH, completely IGNORING my previous post about a harness vs quick releases.

[JD]

So Ian acknowledges that it is NOT a failure point, but simplicity and comfort. Thanks Ian.

I dive a harness on the Inspo, and I had to use a chest strap, otherwise the harness digs into my armpits and is really uncomfortable. I like the straps to come over my shoulder and head straight down, rather than just hanging over the shoulder joint itself. (Lift your arm up now, and see where the joint ends. I like it to sit there, between the joint and neck)
This is what I think PH is talking about. I find a conventional harness uncomfortable for me, and he obviously does too. Why do I have to dive in something which I find uncomfortable? Because they say so. I have no problem eliminating the clips (or failure points) as I do not have them on the Inspo, but I hate it sitting on my shoulder joint. Maybe it is my athletic build?

JD

[PMH]

So Ian acknowledges that it is NOT a failure point, but simplicity and comfort. Thanks Ian.

I dive a harness on the Inspo, and I had to use a chest strap, otherwise the harness digs into my armpits and is really uncomfortable. I like the straps to come over my shoulder and head straight down, rather than just hanging over the shoulder joint itself. (Lift your arm up now, and see where the joint ends. I like it to sit there, between the joint and neck)
This is what I think PH is talking about. I find a conventional harness uncomfortable for me, and he obviously does too. Why do I have to dive in something which I find uncomfortable? Because they say so. I have no problem eliminating the clips (or failure points) as I do not have them on the Inspo, but I hate it sitting on my shoulder joint. Maybe it is my athletic build?

JD

JD remember the weekend at Australias premier cave site( not mentioning tank) when Rb was gearing up in his H harness? and I was watching him trying to get into this awkward arrangement...I said to Rob surely that isn't comfortable... of which he replied this might be the lasy weekend I use it ........ (quotes are not exact)  later Rob then started using a DR transplate harness.........(this is not in anyway a slurr on RB)

Rob it is probably a good idea for you to comment here?

I believe that in this instance the GUE hierarchy are very wrong and hey should reconsider their ignorance to REALITY!

H

ps JD I have seen a number of GUE divers with harness tucked under their armpits!!!

[JD]

Thats True Harvs...

Problem is, and I am surprised nobody has said it yet, the answer is correct fitting. One size fits all, provided it is fitted correctly. This is crap. Ian likes them because they are comfortable for him, I dont like them because they are not for me. Someone explaining to me that "No JD, these are very comfortable" does not cut it. How the hell do they know what is comfortable for me?
I find a shoe comfortable that someone else doesn't. Do I argue with them and tell them they are wrong?

JD

[PMH]

Thats True Harvs...

Problem is, and I am surprised nobody has said it yet, the answer is correct fitting. One size fits all, provided it is fitted correctly. This is crap. Ian likes them because they are comfortable for him, I dont like them because they are not for me. Someone explaining to me that "No JD, these are very comfortable" does not cut it. How the hell do they know what is comfortable for me?
I find a shoe comfortable that someone else doesn't. Do I argue with them and tell them they are wrong?

JD

JD I am thinking that you and I could be the new gurus in diving,,,wanna shave your head first?

[Ian T]

Guys,
Agree that fitting the harness properly is important, and it does take some time getting the straps just right. I know it's comfy for me, and I have a pretty awkward build to fit something that rigid too. There are a lot of big americans diving this system, and small females also. Getting the fit right is important. One of the things that makes getting the harness difficult to put on and take off is having too much air in the wing. It's the most common reason why people find them difficult to remove.
As RN said, 'Fundamentals of Better Diving ' by JJ does cover fitting a backplate. Not everyone has the same build (bigger chests, hips, backs, etc ) and for some people it may dig in. If the shoulder straps are too tight, then the straps will pull outwards on the chest and dig in under the arms. Loosen them off (not so much that the plate sags too low) and it should be ok. Try it and see.

[PMH]

Forgot to add, re me getting a CCR next year, you need to remember that any dive equipment I purchase is multiplied by two , and the budget definitely doesn't extend to that in the near future.

Dual Cab diesel ute maybe, CCR, not so maybe....

ok so when is the second gavin arriving?

[acky]

hmmm interesting post!
I have had a quick release fail, on my first trip to the nullabor however this was due largely to me dropping my tanks on it and this was the first one since starting diving in 95 and cave diving in 98, i have heard other people having them fail but once again due to neglect miss treatment of gear etc
I remember this exact discussion during my pen course in 2000 between myself two instructors on my side and a pen instructor who is sadly no longer with us. It was stated by one that I would not pass the pen course 3/4 of the way thru because i was at the time using a el cheapo copy of the Diverite transpac (i cant remember the name ) anyhow it was said that I need to change to a webbing system if I expect to pass and this needs to be done now! because there is no way i could neg restrictions in the harness i had etc, this of course caused myself to arc up and argue the point (nearly causing a boot of the course!) so thanks to two of the instructors backing me up i passed the pen course even after some very intensive restriction neg and gear removal replacement etc designed to try and make me fail .
i have used a webbing system in the past (borrowed one from a mate b4 I could afford a transpac) and like JD decided it was not comfortable for me and being a large bloke who isnt terribly flexable getting in and out it was a pain (yes it was set up for me) so i cannot fathom why a training agency would force it on people? Yes Ian you have to turn up to a motorcycle course with a helmet and gloves but they dont force you to wear a full face instead of your open face helmet or ditch your kevlar gloves and state leather is the go!!
I have had several incidents in the past where the removal of gear was needed from moving my vastness thru restrictions, stuck due to some foolhardy idea that i could actually fit to chasin a cray and having the clips saved my arse (or got the cray!)
To state that the harness system is not to be used because of the off hand chance a clip will fail is just another example of Gue DIr stating false crap in order for them to sell you a new system. Name one other training agency that owns or has a interest in a gear manufacturer !!!
Use the right tools for the dive at hand if a harness works for you in a cave use it or vice versa dont let some training agency try to sell you another system cos yours doesnt match in with the rest of them.

[PMH]

I love it when people agree with Harv's esp. when showing GUE are wrong

H
 

[Gooey]

Use the right tool for the job is exactly right.....Gue talk about team equipment and there uses... if it made better sense to use a b/p with clips, the whole team should do the same.That would be working within Gue constraints......

But if you weren't intending to try to squeeze through holes in which you don't fit through....webbing without clips would be fine??

Gue talk about planning your dives and dive objectives..... generally you wouldnt plan to go through such narrow restrictions... and if so for what real purpose, you must have a good reason to subject your self to such a big commitment, risk getting stuck and removing gear all for what? If you dont agree with this statement, you prob wont like Gue, but that is their mentality, one which i think is smart,just the same as padi and ssi teach different ways of donating air to an out of gas diver........both work well, but they differ, does that mean one is wrong and the other right

Thats the way Gue divers choose to dive, just as other choose there own way based on facts they prefer to trust the most!!!

Ive dived for cray in a dive rite transpac with only a single side mount recently......but that day i wasn't a gue diver, nor did i say i was...gue is a philosophy and a tool one uses with a team, its is not the only way of diving, but if you are wanting to be a gue diver on a particular day, you would do as you are taught....there is nothing wrong for a gue trained diver to do a solo dive along a jetty in 6m water........it would only be wrong if they said they were doing it in a gue manner....  Get my drift!!



My 2 cents
ks


 

[JD]

Some great points there.

Gooey, believe it or not, you are actually making sense here. It is the zealot attitude that you wearing a single tank (or more correctly not wearing a single tank but taking it along) are a dangerous diver waiting to die with that configuration. Were you unsafe because of it?

The conversation I had with JJ was if you are happy with what you are wearing, and that is what your team is doing, great, you have figured out a system which works for you and the people you dive with. He did not say we were wrong, he was right. He also stated at Oztek he would not recomment the RB80 to people interested in rebreathers, as the training and purchase is far too much to start from scratch.

This is the attitude that will progress GUE, and I guess that is why they changed the name to distance themselves from the DIR zealots.

JD