Line Marking

[onwardsupwards]

Any of you pen types out there able to clarify linemarking protocol to cdaa standards?

Specifically line arrow and non directional personal marker (ie peg/cookie) at jumps etc.

Regards Rick

[Ian T]

RN,

1. At any T, place a marker on the exit side. (A T may be created by the installation of a jump, or a fixed T in the line. If using a jump that has been installed by another team, then this is a fixed T at both ends of the jump, and mark it appropriately (at both ends). If you dont mark both ends, then if the team who installed the jump arrive back to their jump, they may not realise another team is 'using' their jump, and start removing it. You want to prevent this, so you mark both ends.

2. A non-directional marker (NDM) can be used at any location where a line marker is required. A line arrow (Directional Marker DM) may be a better option in some situations, and a poor option in others. Two cases need considering. 1. installing a jump onto a fixed line, where there are no DMs to mark the jump location. You want to mark your exit route, your way home, so you wouldn't use a NDM at the start of the jump, as it wouldn't tell you definitely which way is home. In this case, a DM is much better. 2. A NDM is prefered where installing a DM would confuse other divers in the system. This generally occurs when doing circuit dives. As you come to completing the circuit, installing a DM pointing back the way you came may not be the best exit route, and probably not best route for divers entering the system. With circuits though, you should have dived it from both directions anyway prior to the circuit dive to ensure you have sufficient gas and know the cave from both directions, so you know the midway point of the circuit. 

3. Line marking protocol is also changed when performing circuit dives, where you aren't going out the same way you went in. In these situations, markers may not be placed as some junctions. I always carry a map of the cave so that I know where we are in the cave in this scenario, based on the line stations being marked (A1,A2,A3, J4, etc).   

[onwardsupwards]

Ian, whats your interpretation of the need for NDMs. In what situation are they of use.(any jump?)

Who do they benefit(Lost diver situation? Body recovery team?)

RN

[Ian T]

RN,

I believe they are useful in many situations. In some locations, a fixed line will end and another line start, just to put a break in the line. Given there is only one option for the jump, I wouldn't mark it as there is no need. (Classic example is the Dark Room in Pines, in the Penetration section. You will see this area on your course possibly). Where a jump makes a T in a line, then it makes sense to install a NDM. Although most jumps in Tank are between arrows, showing direction out of the cave, it is good practise for all team members to mark the jump. That way you can confirm where the buddy is in a lost diver situation, by seeing if there NDM is there or not.

NDMs benefit you in that you know your on the way home, and can be VERY re-assuring to see. Long solo dive in 2nd sump Cocklebiddy, and the head started playing tricks, thinking if I was in fact heading out of the cave. I hadn't placed any markers, thinking I wouldn't need them and regretted that choice badly ! (Also didn't have a compass). On some really long dives in Tank, swimming home, a few buddies of mine (experienced divers) have swum off the main line and kept going onto a jump line. Having a NDM on the line, and then noticing they aren't there, is also of benefit. Would have been a lot more concerning if Tank wasn't as signposted as it is.

Summary, NDMs help you reference the cave, and confirm your position in the cave. There are a stack of benefits, to yourself, your buddy, and other teams in the site.   

[JD]

Rick,
Particularly handy in the old S section (none of this may apply now, as it has changed designations to S P and R?) where there were many jumps, and tags were not in sequence. You would get to S1, S2, S3, S9, S10, S4, S11, S12 etc. I have been returning from New South Way and been very surprised to see markers indicating the way out, when I thought it was completely the wrong way! Use the pegs Luke!
As for what Ian said with jumps etc, if everyone pegs, and a diver is lost, when the team exits they can see if the diver is ahead or behind them, ie if the lost divers peg is gone, they are headed out. If the peg is still there, the jump is left in place and the pegs taken, so when the lost diver finds the jump, he knows the rest of the team has exited and pulls the jump.
There is a lot to be said for 'Referencing the cave' though. Even though I had to dive in a section which was not planned (long story in another post) I had been there a few times before and knew where I was, where I was going and why, even though I was swimming against the arrows. The familiarization schedule is tedious at times, but there for a good reason and should be followed.
Also, some circuits have arrows pointing both ways at the middle- While doing the circuit, you spend half the time diving with the arrows and half the dive swimming against them, but you never turned around! A directional marker comes in handy if you jump off the main line with arrows pointing not in the direction you want to exit (does that make sense?). In saying that, a peg or cookie is a directional marker in itself, indicating the way out at a T junction.

JD

[onwardsupwards]

Rick,
Particularly handy in the old S section (none of this may apply now, as it has changed designations to S P and R?) where there were many jumps, and tags were not in sequence. You would get to S1, S2, S3, S9, S10, S4, S11, S12 etc. I have been returning from New South Way and been very surprised to see markers indicating the way out, when I thought it was completely the wrong way! Use the pegs Luke!
As for what Ian said with jumps etc, if everyone pegs, and a diver is lost, when the team exits they can see if the diver is ahead or behind them, ie if the lost divers peg is gone, they are headed out. If the peg is still there, the jump is left in place and the pegs taken, so when the lost diver finds the jump, he knows the rest of the team has exited and pulls the jump.
There is a lot to be said for 'Referencing the cave' though. Even though I had to dive in a section which was not planned (long story in another post) I had been there a few times before and knew where I was, where I was going and why, even though I was swimming against the arrows. The familiarization schedule is tedious at times, but there for a good reason and should be followed.
Also, some circuits have arrows pointing both ways at the middle- While doing the circuit, you spend half the time diving with the arrows and half the dive swimming against them, but you never turned around! A directional marker comes in handy if you jump off the main line with arrows pointing not in the direction you want to exit (does that make sense?). In saying that, a peg or cookie is a directional marker in itself, indicating the way out at a T junction.

JD

Does this mean a NDM should always be on the exit side of a T?

[PMH]

depends on the T eg I wouldn't use one at A3 in tank if I was heading straight ahead to the 90m room and not using the short cut

[JD]

The exit side of ANY intersection.
If you get to a 4 way intersection, you mark the line on which you entered the junction (ie, the way OUT), same with T's or an 8 way junction.

This is much easier to explain using a pad and pencil! Damn Internerd!

JD

[JD]

I got in touch with my inner nerd to produce this gem

E= Direction to entrance, red dot is marker.

JD

[Craig]

Nice work JD.

Refer my little mud-map below (gotta love photoshop).

Being non-site-specific (no point in quoting S1 or Q47 in Tank to me).

Agree that a DM is required at the intersection on the exit side pointing out, be it a fixed arrow or one the team has installed on reaching the intersection.

What is the benefit in putting a PM or team NDM on the exit side of the intersection?

Why not put it on the line which the team has taken?
1. this would indicate to everyone else that there is a diver/team on that line (could be a fixed line or a jump)
2. in the situation of a recovery, the recovery team would therefore know which direction the diver took at the intersection, rather than merely that the diver had passed that intersection. If the NDM is on the exit side the diver/team could be on any one of the intersecting lines (except the exit side of course)
3. the diver/team removes their PM/NDM on the way out indicating that they're off that line & removes the arrow (only if they put it there in the first place) on exiting
4. Where the dive plan calls for heading down another line (not the exit line) once returning from the first, the diver/team comes back to the intersection and removes their PM/NDM from the line they were on & places it on the line they're about to take (leaving the line arrow/DM in place) thus indicating to everyone else including other team members (if using PM's) that the diver has reached the intersection & headed off onto the next line according to plan

Thoughts...?

[onwardsupwards]

Nice work JD.

Refer my little mud-map below (gotta love photoshop).

Being non-site-specific (no point in quoting S1 or Q47 in Tank to me).

Agree that a DM is required at the intersection on the exit side pointing out, be it a fixed arrow or one the team has installed on reaching the intersection.

What is the benefit in putting a PM or team NDM on the exit side of the intersection?

Why not put it on the line which the team has taken?
1. this would indicate to everyone else that there is a diver/team on that line (could be a fixed line or a jump)
2. in the situation of a recovery, the recovery team would therefore know which direction the diver took at the intersection, rather than merely that the diver had passed that intersection. If the NDM is on the exit side the diver/team could be on any one of the intersecting lines (except the exit side of course)
3. the diver/team removes their PM/NDM on the way out indicating that they're off that line & removes the arrow (only if they put it there in the first place) on exiting
4. Where the dive plan calls for heading down another line (not the exit line) once returning from the first, the diver/team comes back to the intersection and removes their PM/NDM from the line they were on & places it on the line they're about to take (leaving the line arrow/DM in place) thus indicating to everyone else including other team members (if using PM's) that the diver has reached the intersection & headed off onto the next line according to plan

Thoughts...?

Craig, you have put more clearly what I am trying to find out. Seems that the placement of the NDM is very dependent on the end purpose use. If it is for intra team then the placement may be different than if it is for indicating to other teams than you are on jumps etc.

[Craig]

Thanks

In my mind I don't think that NDM placement would or indeed should differ depending on end purpose. That could lead to confusion if positioning was to change from one dive to another.

What I've described I believe would work no matter who we were trying to relay our locational message to as it gives more information as to divers' likely location.

C

[Ian T]

Craig,

Why would you place two markers ( a Line Arrow and a NDM ) to tell you the same thing ? I don't care about someone trying to find me on a dive, I'd much rather know one thing : WHAT DIRECTION IS OUT. Placing markers based on recovery divers is silly. The only reason you would need a recovery dive is if you lose WHAT DIRECTION IS OUT.

placing a marker on the exit side ensure that you always know WHAT DIRECTION IS OUT. If you come back to a T that you've placed a NDM on the exit side, and choose to know explore a new branch (RN, KS and I did this in back of Weebubbie ) you just leave your NDM on the exit side of the line and go explore down the new line.

The NDM MUST be placed on the exit side of the line. No if's or buts. I agree with your diagram, you would know which was is out by placing a NDM on the way you're going in, and an arrow pointing out, though why bother. Just place the NDM on the exit side, make the turn, and you know WHAT DIRECTION IS OUT (ie: turn around, follow back to the NDM, then take it )

[JD]

Craig,
Your idea is an excellent one for someone who wants to do a little more time in 'Cave' rated sites.
If a team member was lost, would you continue the dive plan? You would stay where you are or look for him as long as possible, then exit the cave once you hit thirds.
Consider a silt out situation where you cannot identify the marker except by feel. Would you want the marker to tell you where you had been, or the way out?
EVERY marker MUST indicate the exit side of the intersection. This is your lifeline to the surface!
Scenario: You are returning from a dive and have lost your sense of where you are. You hit an intersection. Do you need to know the line that you are on? NO!
I sort of get what Craig is saying re rescue, that the recovering divers will know where you are, but this is confusing having 2 seperate DM on a line, but why?
Stick to the way we do it- it works!
BTW, dont panic too much, this is all covered in the course.

JD

[Ian T]

JD,

I remember giving them a crash course on line markers out in the Nullabor ! I had the same thing from the Yarra's when out there. It can be confusing to start with, though you'll pick it up in no time. Nothing better on the Pen course than swimming past someones NDM that has been placed in the wrong spot... (The Tribe has spoken.... )

As JD said, the NDM placement needs to be considered for when shite hits the fan. You will return from the Trident blacked out. Knowing where you have been counts for little. You need to know which way is out.

( JD, I love ya mate )