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Author Topic: GUE OW courses  (Read 11730 times)
PMH
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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 06:28:51 AM »

RN, KS, would you have done if the GUE OW course if available when you learnt to dive ?

yeah but KS may have forgotton to book on and missed out..... hehehee

personally I have no issue with it as competition is healthy, I am a bit alarmed though to hear IT suggesting that instructors are teaching padi OW in a DIR way WTF is with that...........more brain washing perhaps

PH, why be alarmed ? Why not take good elements from systems and incorporate them into training courses ? would you also be alarmed that include some GUE principles/practises in CDAA training i conduct ? OMG !!!!
Unfortunately to argue with you about the 'DIR way' isnt possible as we know how closed you are to any suggestions or improvements. There is nothing in a PADI OWC that says you can't have a long hose, back up reg around neck, back plate and wing rig. Why not allow students instead of hovering vertically, to learn to hover horizontally ( ala, like REAL diving, remember when you used to do that PH ? ). Why not having them using frog kicks when swimming, stronger kick, better fine positioning etc. nothing in the PADI OWC says you cant do these things.

PH, the latest Undersea Journal (PADI Professional magazine ) shows a number of PADI instructors in DIR compliant single tank rigs ! And guess what, a DIR configuration is almost compliant with the PADI Tec Deep configuration (except without the green nitrox tank stickers on back gas cylinders ) OMG !!! OMG !!! OMG !!!!


Ian that is absolute crap! 
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Ian T
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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 11:55:36 AM »

RN, KS, would you have done if the GUE OW course if available when you learnt to dive ?

yeah but KS may have forgotton to book on and missed out..... hehehee

personally I have no issue with it as competition is healthy, I am a bit alarmed though to hear IT suggesting that instructors are teaching padi OW in a DIR way WTF is with that...........more brain washing perhaps

PH, why be alarmed ? Why not take good elements from systems and incorporate them into training courses ? would you also be alarmed that include some GUE principles/practises in CDAA training i conduct ? OMG !!!!
Unfortunately to argue with you about the 'DIR way' isnt possible as we know how closed you are to any suggestions or improvements. There is nothing in a PADI OWC that says you can't have a long hose, back up reg around neck, back plate and wing rig. Why not allow students instead of hovering vertically, to learn to hover horizontally ( ala, like REAL diving, remember when you used to do that PH ? ). Why not having them using frog kicks when swimming, stronger kick, better fine positioning etc. nothing in the PADI OWC says you cant do these things.

PH, the latest Undersea Journal (PADI Professional magazine ) shows a number of PADI instructors in DIR compliant single tank rigs ! And guess what, a DIR configuration is almost compliant with the PADI Tec Deep configuration (except without the green nitrox tank stickers on back gas cylinders ) OMG !!! OMG !!! OMG !!!!


Ian that is absolute crap! 

Another classic PH response, making use of facts, extensive research, sound, logical reasoning, and non-emotive arguments in responding to my post. Well done PH.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 12:36:43 PM by Ian T » Logged
PMH
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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 01:34:03 PM »

yeah Ian likewise!....after reading your post it seems that perhaps you are trying to create a new race of OW diver beyond the 'general skill level of those who first start diving'

many skills are perhaps left basic in an OW course to allow the lay person who is learning to dive to concentrate and grasp the skills and knowledge needed to become a newbie OW diver.!

it maybe a good idea for you to go an attend an auskick session next winter......you won't see them learning about switching the play, corridor football, kicking from fifty, etc...no they will be learning to kick in there new boots, marking, handballing etc....

you know full well I like much of a DIR system(it was called hogarthian when I started tech diving) but to start brain washing new OW divers with certain aspects of it is I think irresponsible and arrogant. PADI's style has ben tried and tested for teaching OW courses well before perhaps you were out of short pants, pull your head in.




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Ian T
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2008, 10:27:58 AM »

PH, I believe that I fairly sound position to comment on this issue, from experience certifying around 80 OWC divers, and a number of technical divers in Deep Cavern and Cave.

In my time as an OW instructor, having performed three rescues, the biggest problem a lot of people face is lack of buoyancy control. The previous facility where i used to teach, I believe, was a disservice to students, as they couldn't play around and experiment with their buoyancy control. Yes, they could do a hover or fin pivot, though couldn't really fine tune their BCD control. Teaching in a large pool, it's very easy to say to students, go play for 10 minutes in the deep end of the pool, if you hit the bottom, add a little air, if you start to rise up, dump a little. 10 minutes of this while on day one of an OWC is invaluable training. I dont accept the excuse that newly certified divers are 'allowed' to have poor buoyancy control. I'm not expecting perfect, just that the person can control themselves underwater. Do you know how many students finish an OWC thinking that their BCD inflator is an 'up' button, and deflate, takes you down ? They get this impresson from being on the surface, and dont realise that it changes under the water.

I don't believe you understand the skills and knowledge needed to become a newly certified OW diver. Yes, some skills are required to be left basic, though specific knowledge is mandated by PADI for other skills ( eg: the CESA must be taught, demonstrated, and conducted by the student EXACTLY ), yet through good training and diving practises, a student should NEVER have to perform a CESA in a real diving situation. The problem ( as GUE are trying to address ) is that the newly certified OW diver has a level of skills and ability lower than that required (or expected). I personally believe GUE have gone too far the other way though, making diving seem very elusive and difficult. That is the argument and problem. Other training agencies want it to be accessible, and so people can sign up to a program, knowing they can complete it. They dont want to sign up to some huge trainiing program with a risk of failure and not passing. The problem in trying to make diving more accessible is that quality of diver skills can diminish. I think buoyancy control is an important one, that more instructors should spend more time on in a course. It actually saves time on a course, as the diver then picks up other skills a lot better, and less risk in the OW sessions. Simple things can improve a divers skill level with no increase in course time. For example, once basic hovering has been taught, and they can do it, for the next skills, I dont let them sit on the pool bottom. "Now you're divers, you can hover, so no more touching the bottom ok". They hover, learning the skill more, developing airway control, all while watching and learning another skill. Simple stuff, though really effective.

Agree about Auskick. Kicking a football and handballing it is a basic skill for football. So is buoyancy control for diving. So thats why its important to spend more time on it. You can't play corridor football if you can't kick straight into the corridor. Likewise you can't do other things in diving without some level of buoyancy control. Improved buoyancy control makes a diver more relaxed, decreasing air consumption, increasing dive time and pleasure. (Maybe you should try it sometime Smiley )

Well, the PADI OWC does include a brief awareness of technical diving, nitrox, rebreathers, scooters as well. It's hardly brain washing. PADI doesn't have a 'style' per se, just a teaching methodology, that is taught and reproduced by other instructors. It can be tailored to individual needs and desires. Would you do a motorbike course, wanting to ride superbikes, and then the instructor starts talking about his experience on his Honda Gullwing ? Would be a bit out of place wouldn't it.
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Craig
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2008, 03:39:39 PM »

Agree 'playtime' is very valuable in an OWC situation. One particular instructor I've DM'd for always allows some time for the students to play around in the deep end which at the very least gives them time to practice & get used to their new environment.

The only other point I'd like to make is it's a Honda Goldwing, tiger  Smiley
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onwardsupwards
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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2008, 06:51:49 PM »

GUE courses in general,and I think the new OW will be the same,provide exceptional training in trim and buoyancy.
As described by Ians post, mastery of these primary dive skills provides the basis to progress in all round dive proficiency.
If you do not get these right, forget the rest.
I agree with PH (shock horror) that the full on approach of the GUE courses does not agree with everyone but anything that raises the bar,especially in trim and bouyancy can only be a good thing and ,as with the DIR concept in general,(or hogathian to keep Paul happy) aspects of the structure will filter down to the general (Non GUE diver) dive population.

Its (GUE OW) not for everyone, neither are the rest of the GUE course offerings, but time will prove the validity of the course and teaching structures.

GUE1
 
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PMH
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2008, 10:50:36 AM »

I love how IT puts so much effort into his post....but fuck they are too long too read at work
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Ian T
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 07:57:55 PM »

Perhaps if i made my post into a cartoon strip of one line, perhaps 4 frames or so ? probably a little closer to your prefered type and length of literature ?
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PMH
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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2008, 05:37:52 AM »

Perhaps if i made my post into a cartoon strip of one line, perhaps 4 frames or so ? probably a little closer to your prefered type and length of literature ?

Mr T you give me way too much credit!!!!!!!!!!
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onwardsupwards
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 04:34:55 PM »

Perhaps if i made my post into a cartoon strip of one line, perhaps 4 frames or so ? probably a little closer to your prefered type and length of literature ?

Mr T you give me way too much credit!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, IT what were you thinking??

One panel ala Farside would do it. Grin Grin
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Ian T
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2008, 10:48:13 AM »

Perhaps if i made my post into a cartoon strip of one line, perhaps 4 frames or so ? probably a little closer to your prefered type and length of literature ?

Mr T you give me way too much credit!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, IT what were you thinking??

One panel ala Farside would do it. Grin Grin

I think that Gary Larson's use of sarcasm, wit and social commentary would quickly overwhelm old PH. I was thinking something more along the lines of Fred Bassett.

" I'm up, I'll fetch master's shoes "
" Why isn't everyone in the house awake, they should be in the kitchen by now "
" Where is my owner, he needs to be at work in 5 minutes "
" Oh, it's saturday "

I think that is more attuned to the level of information that can be digested by PH.
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PMH
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2008, 12:33:18 PM »

Perhaps if i made my post into a cartoon strip of one line, perhaps 4 frames or so ? probably a little closer to your prefered type and length of literature ?

Mr T you give me way too much credit!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, IT what were you thinking??

One panel ala Farside would do it. Grin Grin

I think that Gary Larson's use of sarcasm, wit and social commentary would quickly overwhelm old PH. I was thinking something more along the lines of Fred Bassett.

" I'm up, I'll fetch master's shoes "
" Why isn't everyone in the house awake, they should be in the kitchen by now "
" Where is my owner, he needs to be at work in 5 minutes "
" Oh, it's saturday "

I think that is more attuned to the level of information that can be digested by PH.

" I'm up, I'll fetch master's shoes "

Ian that is what one can expect to hear from you whilst staying at JJ or St house!

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