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Gooey
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 03:56:20 PM » |
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Testing, testing ,1-2
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*******************************************************If you are going to do it, dont do it with HARVS!!! *************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
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PMH
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 04:14:16 PM » |
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Testing, testing ,1-2
here he is....... |
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PMH
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 10:12:38 AM » |
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a perfectlt serious topic ....and no-one has an opinion
maybe fujak is totally dead
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Craig
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 01:23:56 PM » |
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Interesting indeed.
Aimed at someone new wanting to learn to dive who already has & is familiar with:
Tanks/Cylinders; Regulators (one of the second-stages must be on a 5- to 7-foot/1.5- to 2-meter hose);
Backplate System; Buoyancy Compensation Device; depth-measuring device; timekeeping device; Mask and fins (non-split fins - one wonders why the call for no splits in a recreational environment - haven't they seen the Scubapro jet splits?); one cutting device; Wet Notes; Exposure suit.
Not forgetting they must hold DAN Master level insurance or equivalent (can you even get this if you're not a qualified OWD?), be a non-smoker, & also be CPR/First Aid trained.
I'd be surprised if there are any non-divers out there who would meet the course prerequisites.
As for Mr Potatohead's comments (refer diveoz) that someone would have done this GUE course if available rather than a <insert training agency here> course, IMO that might apply to a very small percentage of the potential dive student population.
Undoubtably you'll get a minority who feel the need for such a high level of training off the bat but I reckon it's a fairly safe bet that the majority won't. How many divers to you know who set out to be a cave-diver or technical diver? I wasn't interested in cave-diving until I sat outside Allendale & watched George & JD come out of the hole.
What about qualification acceptance? Will said diver be abe to roll up to, say, Walindi or Rapa Nui & flip out their GUEOWD card & get onto a dive?
Oh, and lastly - having met all the above they want how much for the course...?
Kudos for devising a course aimed at technical diving as an OOBE but with limited appeal I think. IMO those who wish to do so will progress through their diving as their interest grows however it's a fact that the vast majority doesn't go very much farther than their OWC.
Further, no matter what the quality of training is like you still end up with a newly qualified diver popping out the other end.
C
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If you're gunna do it right stop crapping on & bloody-well get on with it
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Ian T
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 01:59:35 PM » |
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Craig,
some really good points about Pre-requisites for the course. I think that the equipment configuration for the course is fine. A lot of instructors are teaching PADI courses in DIR configurations quite successfully. there is no PADI standard that says you can't donate the reg from your mouth. Gear remove and replace is quite easy on the surface, given that the wing/plate is neutral, so you just need to deflate the wing.
The big issue will be getting this out there to people. Why would I sign up to do the $4k+ course, over 8-10 days when I can do it for $500 or so. At the entry level of a persons dive career, they hardly know if they are going to continue diving, and other commitments may change. I equate this to learning to fly, and doing your first solo flight, and aerobatics all in the space of two weeks. One thing not mentioned here is the burn out factor of training. Some student I have had over the course of two separate weekends have been burnt out from the course. Imagine 8 days continuous ! Potentially they scare a lot of people away from diving.
I'm sure no split fins has been included due to the inability to make small precise fin movements with splits.
I think that people who are after some 'advanced' form of open water training, say, those people mates with Tec divers / cave divers, would be referred to OW instructors who are tec divers. They may equip them in a DIR rig for their PADI OW course, learn to dive in that, but complete the PADI course. Be a lot cheaper, less intense, and far more achieveable, and still a good start to a tec diving future. (JD did the same thing with his OW with GY).
Getting a DIR configuration right from the start is good though. Lots of people out there are buying backplates for diving single cylinders, with no idea how to set it up and dive it cleanly. I've seen some shocking configurations of halcyon backplates, so formal training in it is a good idea.
My recommendation would be do a PADI OW course to start, do some dives first, then a GUE Fundamentals. Cost would be way less, and the diver has more experience prior to the Fundamentals course.
My 2cents
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PMH
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 03:56:24 PM » |
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Interesting indeed.
Aimed at someone new wanting to learn to dive who already has & is familiar with:
Tanks/Cylinders; Regulators (one of the second-stages must be on a 5- to 7-foot/1.5- to 2-meter hose);
Backplate System; Buoyancy Compensation Device; depth-measuring device; timekeeping device; Mask and fins (non-split fins - one wonders why the call for no splits in a recreational environment - haven't they seen the Scubapro jet splits?); one cutting device; Wet Notes; Exposure suit.
Not forgetting they must hold DAN Master level insurance or equivalent (can you even get this if you're not a qualified OWD?), be a non-smoker, & also be CPR/First Aid trained.
I'd be surprised if there are any non-divers out there who would meet the course prerequisites.
As for Mr Potatohead's comments (refer diveoz) that someone would have done this GUE course if available rather than a <insert training agency here> course, IMO that might apply to a very small percentage of the potential dive student population.
Undoubtably you'll get a minority who feel the need for such a high level of training off the bat but I reckon it's a fairly safe bet that the majority won't. How many divers to you know who set out to be a cave-diver or technical diver? I wasn't interested in cave-diving until I sat outside Allendale & watched George & JD come out of the hole.
What about qualification acceptance? Will said diver be abe to roll up to, say, Walindi or Rapa Nui & flip out their GUEOWD card & get onto a dive?
Oh, and lastly - having met all the above they want how much for the course...?
Kudos for devising a course aimed at technical diving as an OOBE but with limited appeal I think. IMO those who wish to do so will progress through their diving as their interest grows however it's a fact that the vast majority doesn't go very much farther than their OWC.
Further, no matter what the quality of training is like you still end up with a newly qualified diver popping out the other end.
C
"I wasn't interested in cave-diving until I sat outside Allendale & watched George & JD come out of the hole." hehehe and they hadn't even been diving yet!!! hehehehhehe sorry couldn't help...now back to being serious |
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PMH
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 04:18:23 PM » |
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Craig,
some really good points about Pre-requisites for the course. I think that the equipment configuration for the course is fine. A lot of instructors are teaching PADI courses in DIR configurations quite successfully. there is no PADI standard that says you can't donate the reg from your mouth. Gear remove and replace is quite easy on the surface, given that the wing/plate is neutral, so you just need to deflate the wing.
The big issue will be getting this out there to people. Why would I sign up to do the $4k+ course, over 8-10 days when I can do it for $500 or so. At the entry level of a persons dive career, they hardly know if they are going to continue diving, and other commitments may change. I equate this to learning to fly, and doing your first solo flight, and aerobatics all in the space of two weeks. One thing not mentioned here is the burn out factor of training. Some student I have had over the course of two separate weekends have been burnt out from the course. Imagine 8 days continuous ! Potentially they scare a lot of people away from diving.
I'm sure no split fins has been included due to the inability to make small precise fin movements with splits.
I think that people who are after some 'advanced' form of open water training, say, those people mates with Tec divers / cave divers, would be referred to OW instructors who are tec divers. They may equip them in a DIR rig for their PADI OW course, learn to dive in that, but complete the PADI course. Be a lot cheaper, less intense, and far more achieveable, and still a good start to a tec diving future. (JD did the same thing with his OW with GY).
Getting a DIR configuration right from the start is good though. Lots of people out there are buying backplates for diving single cylinders, with no idea how to set it up and dive it cleanly. I've seen some shocking configurations of halcyon backplates, so formal training in it is a good idea.
My recommendation would be do a PADI OW course to start, do some dives first, then a GUE Fundamentals. Cost would be way less, and the diver has more experience prior to the Fundamentals course.
My 2cents
"Why would I sign up to do the $4k+ course, over 8-10 days when I can do it for $500 or so" ahhhh...because you spent $5k to dive trimix to 45m when you could have spent $1.5k to learn it to 100m durrr hehehehehe...I couldn't resist |
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JD
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 05:35:42 PM » |
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OK, my $0.02 worth.....
When I decided to learn to dive (well, I had been thinking of doing it for some time, and it was Susie P who dragged me in) I had no idea if it was with PADI, SSI or the young jewish divers club, and nor did I care! Not only that, I thought once you got your ticket, that was it. Like learning to drive, you learn, do the test and that was that.....
Would I have selected a different agency? Probably not. PADI is the biggest worldwide agency and gave me a ticket to dive anywhere in the world! ANYWHERE!!!!! I was sold, and after doing my course, I thought there was none better. The PADI system is the best 'system' of learning there is, bar none. The only way it could be better is if you had to use the PADI brand of equipment to do the course, which was manufactured by them. Of course this would never happen, would it?
Nice idea, and I am sure when the zealots eventually discover women and have little mini zealots running around, that is the way they will go, but not for this little black duck.
JD
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Drilling holes is just boring.....
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onwardsupwards
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 07:08:37 PM » |
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Ho Hum Booooring.
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Do It Right or do it somewhere else
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Ian T
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2008, 07:22:19 PM » |
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RN, KS, would you have done if the GUE OW course if available when you learnt to dive ?
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PMH
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 07:13:33 AM » |
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RN, KS, would you have done if the GUE OW course if available when you learnt to dive ?
yeah but KS may have forgotton to book on and missed out..... hehehee personally I have no issue with it as competition is healthy, I am a bit alarmed though to hear IT suggesting that instructors are teaching padi OW in a DIR way WTF is with that...........more brain washing perhaps |
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Craig
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 12:29:35 PM » |
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Nice idea, and I am sure when the zealots eventually discover women and have little mini zealots running around, that is the way they will go, but not for this little black duck.
JD
Maybe that's the plan. Breed a master race to remove all of those that are not worthy. Your young jewish divers club could be in trouble... |
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If you're gunna do it right stop crapping on & bloody-well get on with it
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PMH
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 01:56:53 PM » |
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Nice idea, and I am sure when the zealots eventually discover women and have little mini zealots running around, that is the way they will go, but not for this little black duck.
JD
Maybe that's the plan. Breed a master race to remove all of those that are not worthy. Your young jewish divers club could be in trouble... they would be too busy haggling over course fees |
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Ian T
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 03:17:08 PM » |
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RN, KS, would you have done if the GUE OW course if available when you learnt to dive ?
yeah but KS may have forgotton to book on and missed out..... hehehee personally I have no issue with it as competition is healthy, I am a bit alarmed though to hear IT suggesting that instructors are teaching padi OW in a DIR way WTF is with that...........more brain washing perhaps PH, why be alarmed ? Why not take good elements from systems and incorporate them into training courses ? would you also be alarmed that include some GUE principles/practises in CDAA training i conduct ? OMG !!!! Unfortunately to argue with you about the 'DIR way' isnt possible as we know how closed you are to any suggestions or improvements. There is nothing in a PADI OWC that says you can't have a long hose, back up reg around neck, back plate and wing rig. Why not allow students instead of hovering vertically, to learn to hover horizontally ( ala, like REAL diving, remember when you used to do that PH ? ). Why not having them using frog kicks when swimming, stronger kick, better fine positioning etc. nothing in the PADI OWC says you cant do these things. PH, the latest Undersea Journal (PADI Professional magazine ) shows a number of PADI instructors in DIR compliant single tank rigs ! And guess what, a DIR configuration is almost compliant with the PADI Tec Deep configuration (except without the green nitrox tank stickers on back gas cylinders ) OMG !!! OMG !!! OMG !!!! |
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